Engineer Boots, Harness Boots...

[Edward]

Red Wing, probably the worst engineer boots in terms of fit there are on the market. Uncomfortable last, wrong design and wrong materials. The whole boots are made to go against your feet but they look cool.
View attachment 459599

It's definitely all about finding the right last - my RWs are a great fit on me, but I tend to find a lot of stock engineers are very loose on my foot by default unless I add some serious insoles. RW are good on me, as are the Chippewas. I'd love to try some Wescos, but they're much too pricey, especially with the pound at a historic low, to buy online without a chance to try then first. Maybe one day when I can afford to travel to the US again.

Motor 3rd gen. Probably my best fit
View attachment 459935

Nice- where were those made again? I have a vague recollection you had some very nice boots from a Chinese brand?

Are any of the higher end engineer boots available for immediate purchase? All I see are disclaimers about long delivery times but not sure I am looking in the right place.

I have ordered a pair from Schott which haven’t arrived yet and would probabaly prefer some boots with more traditional/conventional details (as I understand them) if they are available. It does not look to me like the are made by Redwing. I suspect Schott contracted out to a US factory which kind of makes quality a crap shoot, unless you can count on Schott itself to not market an inferior product.

I'll be interested to see what you make of the Schotts. As memory serves, the speculation is that they're made by Chippewa. Chippewa stopped doing their 11" models a while back, but they could well be making these for Schott. Soles and other construction looked similar. I have a couple of pairs of Chippewas (a 7" pair in oxblood and some nice brown 11"ers), very pleased with them. Solid boots without being overly heavy.

 

[Blackadder]

It's definitely all about finding the right last - my RWs are a great fit on me, but I tend to find a lot of stock engineers are very loose on my foot by default unless I add some serious insoles. RW are good on me, as are the Chippewas. I'd love to try some Wescos, but they're much too pricey, especially with the pound at a historic low, to buy online without a chance to try then first. Maybe one day when I can afford to travel to the US again.




Nice- where were those made again? I have a vague recollection you had some very nice boots from a Chinese brand?



I'll be interested to see what you make of the Schotts. As memory serves, the speculation is that they're made by Chippewa. Chippewa stopped doing their 11" models a while back, but they could well be making these for Schott. Soles and other construction looked similar. I have a couple of pairs of Chippewas (a 7" pair in oxblood and some nice brown 11"ers), very pleased with them. Solid boots without being overly heavy.

Motor are made in Japan. I have one pair of engineer boots that is made in China but I have never worn them. I do have a couple of vintage PLA boots and a couple of Chinese made Monkey boots.
Red Wing engineer is terrible in many ways. Even buckling proves difficult. The buckles are so tight and yet they still use the same thick leather for the straps. Also the heels are too small

 

[Richard Warren]

Standard and Strange is out of my size in Lofgren’s. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

I received the Schott’s today. 360 degree welt and short square heel with sprung toes. A different look than a lot of boots I see on the net. There is a decided rearward lean to the boots that seems counter to what I see for engineer boots and different from any other boots I have. I guess this could be a feature for riding which I am not going to be doing. This aspect does not appear on the Schottwebsite.

A couple of scratches on the leather and some rough places in the stitching of the upper. The welting seems pretty well done. Overall fit and finish is below say Dr. Marten’s from Thailand in terms of regulatory of stitching and seams. But then so is Alden frequently. A little bit below some Redwings I bought recently. Just a general air of roughness which is not in and of itself very objectionable in boots designed for a little rough treatment.

The fit is pretty good with boot socks. I would say true to size in terms of traditional dress shoe size. I wear 10.5 in Alden (I do not size down but wear them the way they were designed), Allen Edmonds, Asolo, Crockett and Jones, Redwing, and most everything but tennis shoes. The arch is a little tight but I have high arches. I don’t think there would be any use in the arch buckle for me.

The tops are quite roomy and the come off pretty easy. I didn’t fool with the buckles.

The leather has some “swollen” patches that to me are questionable in texture. Hard to explain or photograph.

I’d probably keep then for wearing casually this winter except the backward lean gives me pause. It suggests something went wrong in the assembly process. Seems like the front of the shaft could always be rubbing up against my shin, since the lean is most pronounced at the top. The look is sort of similar to rubber “Wellies” or shrimp boots in the back, which give room to get the boots on, but rubber boots in my experience don’t lean back in the front like these do.

Compared to some old Lucchese rompers:

From Schott website:

https://www.schottnyc.com/products/10-engineer-boot.htm#&gid=1&pid=5

Unless somebody tells me this a some sort of desirable quirk in engineering boot, or I am otherwise off base here, they’re going back.

I could take some other pictures if anyone would like.

 

[Bfd70]

They look like rw or chippewa. Price seems a little high. I also think it’s B.S. that they put a boot for sale for $300 and say zero about it.

 

[Richard Warren]

The price of most everything these days seems a little high.

I looked around some more and came across White’s which seem to share with Schott a tendency to lean to the rear, as do some pictures of Wesco. Maybe that is not as non-standard as I thought. Again, any expert advice would be appreciated.

I’m back on the fence about the boots. The workmanship isn’t up to the dress shoes I usually buy, as I noted, but those shoes frequently disappoint themselves these days, and the reality is the Schott’s are not that far off from what you would expect for the price these days, for a fairly specialized item, if at all, so I’m not so concerned about the price as the rearward lean, which struck me as an anomaly or even defect but may not be.

 

[Blackadder]

The price of most everything these days seems a little high.

I looked around some more and came across White’s which seem to share with Schott a tendency to lean to the rear, as do some pictures of Wesco. Maybe that is not as non-standard as I thought. Again, any expert advice would be appreciated.

I’m back on the fence about the boots. The workmanship isn’t up to the dress shoes I usually buy, as I noted, but those shoes frequently disappoint themselves these days, and the reality is the Schott’s are not that far off from what you would expect for the price these days, for a fairly specialized item, if at all, so I’m not so concerned about the price as the rearward lean, which struck me as an anomaly or even defect but may not be.

The rearward lean is not uncommon. Role Club 1st model has a very obvious rearward lean possibly for riding certain type of motorcycles while Attractions has a forward lean. Schott used to sell Chippewa boots but Chippewa has discontinued its engineer boots and other heritage style boots. This new one resembles Chippewa but has lower heel. Having read your comments, I am starting to doubt these are made by Chippewa.
JL do mostly pre-order so is Mister Freedom. Perhaps have a look at Viberg and Flathead.
https://www.selfedge.com/footwear?product_id=2429

 

[Richard Warren]

If Viberg still makes an engineer boot they do a good job of hiding it from me on the internet. Saw some Flat Heads but only returnable for store credit and I have no idea about sizing.

I also looked at Mr. Freedom (sold out of course) and in some pictures they have a rearward lean, so my concerns about that are allayed somewhat. Is it possible this kind of boot starts off leaning back and starts to lean forward from being cinched?

I found a site that appears to sell Attractions, so my options at this point appear to be them or the Schott’s.

My comments about the Schott’s may seem more negative than I feel about them. Overall on first superficial appearance the construction quality is IMO ok for the price and for my intended use. Whether they will last or fulfill whatever needs you have I have no idea. I personally am just looking for something to wear casually as a change from all the more formal shoes I have mostly worn and which are neither tennis shoes or the current tennis shoe/dress shoe hybrids.

If you are looking for practical engineer boots they may well fit your bill and they can be returned if they don’t.

I would welcome any other thoughts from those who know about these things.

 

[handymike]

Your ropers look fantastic.

 

[Blackadder]

If Viberg still makes an engineer boot they do a good job of hiding it from me on the internet. Saw some Flat Heads but only returnable for store credit and I have no idea about sizing.

I also looked at Mr. Freedom (sold out of course) and in some pictures they have a rearward lean, so my concerns about that are allayed somewhat. Is it possible this kind of boot starts off leaning back and starts to lean forward from being cinched?

I found a site that appears to sell Attractions, so my options at this point appear to be them or the Schott’s.

My comments about the Schott’s may seem more negative than I feel about them. Overall on first superficial appearance the construction quality is IMO ok for the price and for my intended use. Whether they will last or fulfill whatever needs you have I have no idea. I personally am just looking for something to wear casually as a change from all the more formal shoes I have mostly worn and which are neither tennis shoes or the current tennis shoe/dress shoe hybrids.

If you are looking for practical engineer boots they may well fit your bill and they can be returned if they don’t.

I would welcome any other thoughts from those who know about these things.

A lot of the makers do not make regular batch of engineer boots these days. Most are made to order or made to dealers' orders (sometimes marked as collaboration). I can provide a long list of makers but as said most of those would not meet your requirement because either they are MTO or they are not returnable (Japanese stores usually do not do returns save for defects). I think Viberg still makes engineer boots but only on order from dealers. The same goes for Red Wing. Only RW does it on order from distributor which is why you can only get certain models from the Japanese and Europe distributors only. Frye is an option but they have mixed reviews. They switched from made in USA to imported then now seems to be made in USA with imported materials. My pair of Frye is discontinued, a special model made for Coach and I have no experience with their regular ones.

 

[Richard Warren]

Frye engineeers (the 12r) seem to be as scarce (read non-existent) as the rest.

You’re right I’m not much of a consumer of pre-orders or made to order. The way things are even with the more reputable manufactuerers I find I need to examine new goods pretty closely for defects and to be able to return without too much trouble.

Size is a particular problem since I like room in my shoes and for example wear Alden Barrie’s in my Brannock size instead of sizing down which people think you are supposed to do (wrongly, IMO) so I find cannot rely on the advice of sellers as to size because the prevailing notion seems to be you should wear your shoes tight. I can’t make heads or tails out of the Attractions size advice.

 

[Jiaward]

Not sure of your size or budget but these just were listed and are great boots imo. Also I don’t know about them but Skoob engineers at east west apparel look good.

Thread 'Interest Check: BSW * Clinch Brown Horsebutt Engineers CN last US 9.5'
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...wn-horsebutt-engineers-cn-last-us-9-5.109181/

 

[Blackadder]

Frye engineeers (the 12r) seem to be as scarce (read non-existent) as the rest.

You’re right I’m not much of a consumer of pre-orders or made to order. The way things are even with the more reputable manufactuerers I find I need to examine new goods pretty closely for defects and to be able to return without too much trouble.

Size is a particular problem since I like room in my shoes and for example wear Alden Barrie’s in my Brannock size instead of sizing down which people think you are supposed to do (wrongly, IMO) so I find cannot rely on the advice of sellers as to size because the prevailing notion seems to be you should wear your shoes tight. I can’t make heads or tails out of the Attractions size advice.

My bad. Seems Frye is only making them for women now. It is pretty surprising that all the American makers have discontinued or somehow moved their engineer boots to the higher end MTO lines. White's and Viberg both had entry level RTW safety rated engineer boots not long ago. Now gone. Chippewa, Carolina and Durango discontinued theirs. Red Wing's are only available in Japan and Europe.

 

[Richard Warren]

It does seem strange that an item that some people seem to be able to sell out of at relatively high prices is not sold in another version by others at lesser prices…but maybe not so strange after all in light of the current environment.

Back in early 2020 (before Covid really kicked in) an interesting guy wrote a piece asking why there were no affordable versions. May have been an trend strangled in the crib by Covid.

https://almostvintagestyle.com/2020/03/27/why-are-there-no-affordable-engineer-boots/

TBH I never gave them much thought before. I recently bought a pair of Redwing moc toes out of nostalgia (I used to wear similar boots from Sears hunting and casually years ago). When shopping for them I saw references on the net to engineer boots as another kind of traditional work boot and thought I would give them a try. One interesting thing is that the first page of this thread from 2008 has a reference to engineer boots as rockabilly accessories. Now there appears to be great agglomeration of traditional American styles into one retro style that includes Redwings, Alden PTB’s, sack suits, selvedge denim, and leather jackets, all reflected in some degree back to the US from Japan.

In the article there are pictures of John Lofgren and Mr. Freedom boots, presented as having started the trend (in 2020) towards the boots, the latter with a pronounced forward lean, and the latter with what appears to be a rearward slant. Makes me wonder whether the forward slant is a return to the US from Japan of the look of the boots in America before they were motorcycle wear, while the rear slant might be a biker thing. Just speculation of course but would still be interested if anyone knows more about why some of these boot seem to lean in one direction or another.

 

[Edward]

Motor are made in Japan. I have one pair of engineer boots that is made in China but I have never worn them. I do have a couple of vintage PLA boots and a couple of Chinese made Monkey boots.
Red Wing engineer is terrible in many ways. Even buckling proves difficult. The buckles are so tight and yet they still use the same thick leather for the straps. Also the heels are too small

The heel shape is interesting - very different from the lower, wider Brit-style heels I was used to before. Somewhere between a "normal" heel and a cowboy heel for me. I like how they wear, but it's definitely different. (All those years of Dr Frank'n'Furter heels make them an easy wear for me!)

It does seem strange that an item that some people seem to be able to sell out of at relatively high prices is not sold in another version by others at lesser prices…but maybe not so strange after all in light of the current environment.

Back in early 2020 (before Covid really kicked in) an interesting guy wrote a piece asking why there were no affordable versions. May have been an trend strangled in the crib by Covid.

https://almostvintagestyle.com/2020/03/27/why-are-there-no-affordable-engineer-boots/

TBH I never gave them much thought before. I recently bought a pair of Redwing moc toes out of nostalgia (I used to wear similar boots from Sears hunting and casually years ago). When shopping for them I saw references on the net to engineer boots as another kind of traditional work boot and thought I would give them a try. One interesting thing is that the first page of this thread from 2008 has a reference to engineer boots as rockabilly accessories. Now there appears to be great agglomeration of traditional American styles into one retro style that includes Redwings, Alden PTB’s, sack suits, selvedge denim, and leather jackets, all reflected in some degree back to the US from Japan.

In the article there are pictures of John Lofgren and Mr. Freedom boots, presented as having started the trend (in 2020) towards the boots, the latter with a pronounced forward lean, and the latter with what appears to be a rearward slant. Makes me wonder whether the forward slant is a return to the US from Japan of the look of the boots in America before they were motorcycle wear, while the rear slant might be a biker thing. Just speculation of course but would still be interested if anyone knows more about why some of these boot seem to lean in one direction or another.

View attachment 464413 View attachment 464414

The rockabilly tribe here in the UK don't always seem to be so interested in the technicalities / big brands as we might be in these parts. Grinders are very popular with them - around £100 a pair. My first engineer boots were Grinders - still got 'em, actually. Very decently made, albeit the model I bought are a bit on the chunky side for my tastes now (BIG commando soles), the main drawback being the leather, while durable enough (I've had mine since 2004, with no apparent problems), is noticeably not as nice as the RW / Chippewas at three times the price. Cheap but decent EBs are available round here. Very decent ones across Europe from the likes of Sendra that are less well known in the English-speaking world. Overall, though, I'd expect that with this sort of thing falling outside mainstream fashion, we're more likely to see them relegated to only the really expensive, niche market for the most part. A shame as that cuts a lot of us out, but that's the inevitable nature of the market. If there were enough of us buying more affordable units, there'd be more made.

 

[handymike]

Frye is a mess IMO. The last good boots they made were their Artisanal line (both engineers and ropers) made in USA. They charged $800 which seems high, but If you can find them around $300 you’d be doing well.

 

[Blackadder]

The heel shape is interesting - very different from the lower, wider Brit-style heels I was used to before. Somewhere between a "normal" heel and a cowboy heel for me. I like how they wear, but it's definitely different. (All those years of Dr Frank'n'Furter heels make them an easy wear for me!)




The rockabilly tribe here in the UK don't always seem to be so interested in the technicalities / big brands as we might be in these parts. Grinders are very popular with them - around £100 a pair. My first engineer boots were Grinders - still got 'em, actually. Very decently made, albeit the model I bought are a bit on the chunky side for my tastes now (BIG commando soles), the main drawback being the leather, while durable enough (I've had mine since 2004, with no apparent problems), is noticeably not as nice as the RW / Chippewas at three times the price. Cheap but decent EBs are available round here. Very decent ones across Europe from the likes of Sendra that are less well known in the English-speaking world. Overall, though, I'd expect that with this sort of thing falling outside mainstream fashion, we're more likely to see them relegated to only the really expensive, niche market for the most part. A shame as that cuts a lot of us out, but that's the inevitable nature of the market. If there were enough of us buying more affordable units, there'd be more made.

Does It not seem odd that the two makers (Grinders and Sendra) who are still churning out RTW engineer boots are European companies?

 

[Blackadder]

It does seem strange that an item that some people seem to be able to sell out of at relatively high prices is not sold in another version by others at lesser prices…but maybe not so strange after all in light of the current environment.

Back in early 2020 (before Covid really kicked in) an interesting guy wrote a piece asking why there were no affordable versions. May have been an trend strangled in the crib by Covid.

https://almostvintagestyle.com/2020/03/27/why-are-there-no-affordable-engineer-boots/

TBH I never gave them much thought before. I recently bought a pair of Redwing moc toes out of nostalgia (I used to wear similar boots from Sears hunting and casually years ago). When shopping for them I saw references on the net to engineer boots as another kind of traditional work boot and thought I would give them a try. One interesting thing is that the first page of this thread from 2008 has a reference to engineer boots as rockabilly accessories. Now there appears to be great agglomeration of traditional American styles into one retro style that includes Redwings, Alden PTB’s, sack suits, selvedge denim, and leather jackets, all reflected in some degree back to the US from Japan.

In the article there are pictures of John Lofgren and Mr. Freedom boots, presented as having started the trend (in 2020) towards the boots, the latter with a pronounced forward lean, and the latter with what appears to be a rearward slant. Makes me wonder whether the forward slant is a return to the US from Japan of the look of the boots in America before they were motorcycle wear, while the rear slant might be a biker thing. Just speculation of course but would still be interested if anyone knows more about why some of these boot seem to lean in one direction or another.

View attachment 464413 View attachment 464414

I think it is a vintage style thing. I am sure Chippewa, Carlina etc would still be making engineer boots if they are still popular among bikers. IMO engineer boots have become a niche fashion item for men who are into 40s and 50s western style much like selvedge jeans. It probably began with RRL and Julian boots. Then came Mister Freedom and Lofgren etc. The half sole, vintage heels and last etc also the more pronounced forward lean all more to do with the look (Bikers would have gone for full rubber probably lug sole with their Wesco).
I seem to remember that Harness boots are more popular among bikers from the 90s onward, Engineer boots seem to have become women's fashion as evidenced by Frye's continual production of their women's engineer boots. I also remember Meg Ryan wearing engineer boots in the 1997 film Addicted to Love.

 

[Richard Warren]

Thanks all for the replies.

I think I’ll just keep the Schott’s. A boots that exists is better than the best boot in the world that doesn’t.

 

[Pandemic]

Benzeins

 

[Edward]

Does It not seem odd that the two makers (Grinders and Sendra) who are still churning out RTW engineer boots are European companies?

It's an amusing irony that something as readily pigeon-holed as 'Heritage Americana' is only readily available from non-US companies, though no odder I suppose than Japan becoming the Mecca for same. Perhaps it ultimately comes down to the same sort of psychology as the old lines about 'a prophet in his own land' or familiarity breeding contempt? Somewhere in that region. I've not given it a huge amount of thought as, I suppose, I've never really prized the "made in USA" aspect in and of itself (not that I have any objection to US manufacture, obvs...), but yeah. Way of the world, it seems - though the difference from the normal trend here is that what I suppose could be loosely considered 'offshoring' from a US perspective isn't the usual price-driven theme, rather lack of market demand.

I think it is a vintage style thing. I am sure Chippewa, Carlina etc would still be making engineer boots if they are still popular among bikers. IMO engineer boots have become a niche fashion item for men who are into 40s and 50s western style much like selvedge jeans. It probably began with RRL and Julian boots. Then came Mister Freedom and Lofgren etc. The half sole, vintage heels and last etc also the more pronounced forward lean all more to do with the look (Bikers would have gone for full rubber probably lug sole with their Wesco).
I seem to remember that Harness boots are more popular among bikers from the 90s onward, Engineer boots seem to have become women's fashion as evidenced by Frye's continual production of their women's engineer boots. I also remember Meg Ryan wearing engineer boots in the 1997 film Addicted to Love.

Certainly any engineer-style boots I see sold here in the UK / on websites targeting UK motorcyclists seem to be rubber-soled and more 'modern' in construction. Somewhere I have a pair by TCX that are waterproof, and Goretex-lined, with a rubber sole.

The other quirk here in the UK would be the very different retro-bike scene by and large. There seems to be less (by no means non-existent, but definitely less) of an American 40s / 50s thing on the active, retro-motorcyclist scene (i.e. those who dress the part as well, rather than it being purely focused on the bikes). The big thing I see here being the sixties rocker vibe, where it's all about the more British-style, slimmer-fitting boots, usually with a zip up the back or sometimes buckle-fastenings that fit the boot closer to the leg. (I have my own theory that this reflects different evolutions of riding boots on the two sides of the Ocean, but I have nothing I'd claim as evidence for that - just a personal speculation.) Of course, even Lewis leathers themselves now I suspect sell as many and more boots (and jackets, and.... and...) as fashionwear than they do gear that will ever see the back of a motorcycle.

Thanks all for the replies.

I think I’ll just keep the Schott’s. A boots that exists is better than the best boot in the world that doesn’t.

Very, very true!

Benzeins View attachment 464597

Nice jeans! I'm a bit agnostic these days about paying the extra for selvedge on blue jeans, but that little detail no the cuff with a black pair is a really nice detail that just sings out.