Engineer Boots, Harness Boots...

[jimmer_5]

Coffee - I'm not sure if you ever really justify the price tag, but it can be really nice to buy quality. I think the world has gotten to the level where you could buy several cheap pairs of boots and still spend less than you would on one good pair. I think it comes down to what you want, and your personal decision about where to draw the line. For me, I tend to look for a point of diminishing returns. I am not really comfortable spending more than $400 - $550 on a really good pair of boots, and they had better be pretty breathtaking at that price. I am not a wealthy person, so each time I purchase something like this it is a farily big deal to me.

In my price point, I have been really impressed with White's, Wesco, and Nick's (save the fit issues I have had with them). These boots are true work boots with a classic look, so I expect them to be built extremely well and fit great. The RRL's are a bit of an unknown quantity to me - they are (in my estimation) more of a "fashion" boot, and I am a little nervous in spite of the positive things I have read. For this kind of money (I paid $400) I expect them to last for many years and to be made with top quality materials and a very high level of craftsmanship and durability. These boots originally sold for around $950, the same price as the Road Champs. I'm not sure if they are a really worth $950, but I am betting that they are at least as good as a $400 boot.

We shall see.....

 

[too much coffee]

I couldn't agree with you more and very well stated. Spending that kind of bread is a big deal to me as well and that item better be worth it.
I equate it to buying a car. When I drive the car away from the dealership I realize the dealer got the better deal otherwise he would not have sold it. He actually profited from my expenditure. But I've justified this outlay of money based on my wants, needs and desires. This is why I can have a smile on my face while driving away from that dealership or walking out of the White's boots retail store with boxes or even leaving the Filson flagship store with bags of expensive clothing. I know I got the best possible return for my money that I spent. And those 3 examples of purchasing I gave....those guys know I won't be back for a long time. I use my stuff hard, but I maintain it and therefore lasts me a long time.


At $400 for those boots man, you made out like a bandit. Good job.

 

[trapp]

Julian does not make the RRL engineer boots anymore, the new RRL Murdock Engineer boots are from a new maker in TX. Also, the Julian made boots are not dyed all the way through, I have two pair. They will indeed develop the brown undertones. I think that RRL must want this confusion because they do not make it very easy to find out.

True, the murdocks you own are not dyed all the way through. But some are. Unless the two sales reps I worked with don't know what they were talking about (one of them said he owned a pair of Julian murdocks dyed all the way through) there are still some early Julian murdocks floating around the RRL stores and some are dyed all the way through-including the pair I tried on.

The store also had some later murdocks by the maker in Texas and I was able to compare the boots side by side. I prefer the hardware of the original murdocks. They didn't have the later murdocks in my size so I can't comment on any fit differences, or if any even exist.

 

[trapp]

Coffee - I'm not sure if you ever really justify the price tag, but it can be really nice to buy quality. I think the world has gotten to the level where you could buy several cheap pairs of boots and still spend less than you would on one good pair. I think it comes down to what you want, and your personal decision about where to draw the line. For me, I tend to look for a point of diminishing returns. I am not really comfortable spending more than $400 - $550 on a really good pair of boots, and they had better be pretty breathtaking at that price. I am not a wealthy person, so each time I purchase something like this it is a farily big deal to me.

In my price point, I have been really impressed with White's, Wesco, and Nick's (save the fit issues I have had with them). These boots are true work boots with a classic look, so I expect them to be built extremely well and fit great. The RRL's are a bit of an unknown quantity to me - they are (in my estimation) more of a "fashion" boot, and I am a little nervous in spite of the positive things I have read. For this kind of money (I paid $400) I expect them to last for many years and to be made with top quality materials and a very high level of craftsmanship and durability. These boots originally sold for around $950, the same price as the Road Champs. I'm not sure if they are a really worth $950, but I am betting that they are at least as good as a $400 boot.

We shall see.....

That's a great price for those boots. I hope they work out and I'm curious to hear your impressions once you receive them.

Pricing aside, I don't consider the RRL engineers a fashion boot. Amazing materials and old-school craftsmanship. Obviously people need to decide if they want to lay out that kind of dough for a boot, but there's no question the boots are top-notch. I was wearing my road champs when I tried them on and felt the quality was comparable. Yet the designs were different enough that there would be no redundancy in owning both. (The murdocks have a rounder toe than the road champs and a much more fitted shaft, for example.)

Are they worth the extra money compared to other great boots like Wesco and White's with $400-500 price tags? Strictly speaking, probably not. I don't have an endless reserve of funds for clothing either, but if I try on a pair of engineer boots and everything is clicking--fit, materials, style, exclusivity--and I don't have anything like it, and I don't have to wait weeks or months for it to be made, or have to wonder if they'll fit when I receive them, I will just drop the extra money, wear them out the store, and never look back. I did that for the road champs, felt a pinch in my wallet, but never once looked back. I love 'em.

 

[jimmer_5]

Trapp, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against more expensive boots like the Road Champs, Beck's, Lone Wolf, John Lofgren, etc. I just think there is a point of diminishing returns, so one has to be choosy if they intend to spend that much on a pair of boots. Personally, I don't see myself venturing that far north in price, but that's just my personal decision. I would love to try these extra high-end boots, I just don't make enough to justify it.

I am glad to hear your opinion on the RRL's. I have high expectations for these - from what I've heard, the leather is very thick and supple. I am mainly concerned that I won't be able to get my foot through the narrow opening at the bottom of the shaft. Unfortunately, that might be the dealbreaker for these.

 

[tonypaj]

Took a look at the RRL boots today at their shop on Bleecker Street. Looked like a normal pair of boots to me. And yes, they could well be narrow in the opening. I have the same problem, had to have a pair of ostrich Chippewas stretched. The RRL colors are neat, though. They also had a bunch of 2nd hand boots, a pair that looked like old Fryes going for $495. I'll be heading to Fryes at Spring street, rather...

 

[Seawolf]

You've got great taste in boots Seawolf. Wesco Jobmasters are terrific!

Regards,
coffee

Thanks! Do you own a pair? They are top-notch as far as comfort goes. Sometimes I love the way they look, and sometimes I think they look goofy. Part of that is because I have big, wide feet! Nothing compares to the comfort of wescos though. They're so sturdy, yet light and supportive.

 

[ButteMT61]

I have two pair of USA made Chippewas. One in brown, and one in black with steel toes. Maybe not RRL or Whites or Red Wings, but a darn nice lot for the money. For the price, I have two good pairs to ride with and not break the bank.

 

[trapp]

Tonypaj, you must own a lot of nice footwear. I own and wear lots of boots, aldens, yuketen, mfrc's, as well as stuff like 1000 miles boots and chippewa, and I more or less like them all. But I felt the Murdock was one of the nicest boots I've ever had on my feet. The leather was incredible. Thick, supple, responsive. I liked the fitted shaft; it was difficult getting my foot into the new boots (and even more difficult getting them off) but nothing to be concerned about. They would clearly be fine after some wear. I have somewhat slender ankles, so that may account for my positive reaction to this fit, but there was a real glove-like quality to these boots right up through the lower leg. I like that. It's something the RC's don't offer; they are very roomy in the shaft. I like their fit too--sort of like slippers. To draw a comparison, the RC's fit like a Highwayman and the RRL's like a 30s halfbelt. For my money, there is nothing normal about the RRL's. Who knows, maybe I was just overly impressionable the day I tried them on? They seem thoughtfully and beautifully built. Of course, whether they are $800-$900 beautiful is another question. I know this much: I'd snap up any pair I saw for $500 or less in my size...even if they were dyed all the way through!

 

[jimmer_5]

Well, the RRL Engineer Boots arrived on Wednesday, and to make a short story shorter, they will be going back.

To be fair, the boots are beautiful - the leather is thick and supple, yet the boots are lighter than my White's and Wesco Engineers. The toe profile is a little less rounded as well, which vintage enthusiast will appreciate. The color is a very nice medium shade of brown - there appear to be two subtly different shades of brown for these boots, and mine are the more distressed and supple version. The workmanship appears to be very fine, and I really can't find any fault with the look and construction. Once they are on your feet, they even fit really well.

Getting them on is another matter entirely.

The shaft (upper) is tapered from top to bottom - it looks fantastic, but functionally, it just doesn't work. I wonder if the shaft is larger on the smaller sized boots because I know some other people have had less of an issue with this. My feet are a pretty true size 13D (medium width) in most things, a 13D in Wesco's and a 12.5D in White's. I may have a little high instep, but my feet are not fat or wide. However, these boots were very difficult to put on, and nearly impossible to get off. I was actually worried that me or the boots would end up broken by the time I got them off.

I think the trick to these is that the owner must have a fairly low instep (the thickness of the foot from top to bottom) for these boots to work. I would strongly recommend trying these on if you can, and if not, make sure the seller has a very good return policy. This is a tricky type of fit issue, and I can see it being hard to guess if these would fit or not.

I am disappointed, that these did not work out - eventually, I will probably just order another pair of White's Nomads with similar construction (double midsoles, and Vibram 705 half sole). I hop I am not being unfair, as I think there are plenty of people out there who have been able to wear these, and they are really nice boots. Unfortunately, they don't work for me.

I will try and post some pictures and measurements this weekend.

- Jim


*******EDITED TO ADD***********

Ok, I gave these another try a few days later - this is detailed in my later posts, but I wanted to make sure this was clear - they still take work to get on and off, but it gets easier as you keep working at it. At least with my boots, the leather seems to be stretching, and while they are not easy to put on/take off, they are getting easier every time. I still think this is important information for anyone who is considering these boots to be aware of.

 

[trapp]

Thanks for the review, and sorry to hear the boots aren't going to work out for you. That's a bummer. It is indeed a tricky type of fit issue and there's nothing unfair in acknowledging a boot isn't going to work out. Who wants to feel broken after getting out of their boots? Sounds like the shaft angle/tightness on this pair is beyond anything that will loosen up with a bit of wear and patience and pounding. Probably best to return and direct funds toward a boot that's going to work.

 

[illumin8em]

Well, the RRL Engineer Boots arrived on Wednesday, and to make a short story shorter, they will be going back.

Getting them on is another matter entirely.

these boots were very difficult to put on, and nearly impossible to get off. I was actually worried that me or the boots would end up broken by the time I got them off.

- Jim

Absolutely not trying to convince you to keep them, but.... mine fit exactly the same (both pair). I initially put the black pair up for sale for this exact reason, and ended up getting the brown pair hoping it wouldn't be an issue, well it was. I let the brown pair sit on the box staring at me for week out of personal punishment for these blunders, but then I just cracked and wore them. Not kidding, it took me 5min to get them off the first time. I loved the boots though and just sucked it up, wearing them for a week straight. After one week, they are were softened and felt perfect. The difficult removal taught me new technique how to best get them off, and the area of tightness is not only softer, but stretched perfectly to accommodate my foot sliding in and out without too much grief.

If you stick it out, it will get better. If you got them for a great price, it may be worth the work.

Also, if White's would give in and let some things be changed on that new engineer boots, I would get a pair too. I love my White's

 

[ButteMT61]

I've got some cowboy boots - expensive ones - that even after 20 years are a b*tch to get off after a day on. Can't give 'em up though. Suffering for fashion lol

 

[jimmer_5]

Absolutely not trying to convince you to keep them, but.... mine fit exactly the same (both pair). I initially put the black pair up for sale for this exact reason, and ended up getting the brown pair hoping it wouldn't be an issue, well it was. I let the brown pair sit on the box staring at me for week out of personal punishment for these blunders, but then I just cracked and wore them. Not kidding, it took me 5min to get them off the first time. I loved the boots though and just sucked it up, wearing them for a week straight. After one week, they are were softened and felt perfect. The difficult removal taught me new technique how to best get them off, and the area of tightness is not only softer, but stretched perfectly to accommodate my foot sliding in and out without too much grief.

If you stick it out, it will get better. If you got them for a great price, it may be worth the work.

Also, if White's would give in and let some things be changed on that new engineer boots, I would get a pair too. I love my White's

First off, if that picture is of you, your boots look great! They look to be breaking in very gracefully.

I took your advice this morning and took another look at my boots. I took a measuring tape, and was very surprised to find that the narrow part of the shaft was only 1/2" smaller in diameter than my White's measured at the same spot. Armed with your advice, I gave them another try, and after several slow tries at putting them on and taking them off, the leather does appear to be stretching. It's not easy, but it is manageable with the right technique. I am pulling in the back, then the front, and going back and forth until they slowly slip on. Once on, there is virtually no heel slip, due to the narrow ankle above the heel counter. The leather is remarkably thick, yet it seems to be surprisingly supple and flexible.

I think I will give these a little more effort around the house before I make a final decision. Perhaps I spoke too soon about returning these, but, truth be told, I never would have given them this much effort had you not mentioned that you had the same problem and overcame it. Thanks for the help! If they continue to improve, I may be down to the basic normal questions of "do I like these enough to keep them?", "are they worth what I paid?", and "will my spouse ever forgive me for buying yet another pair of expensive boots?".

 

[too much coffee]

Jimmer;

Be tough with them. You have enough experience with Engineers to know, as wearing hours build up and the on/off procedure of the boots is so repetitous
it's become a muscle memory routine , those boots will loosen up somewhat and the comfort factor will take hold.
To answer your 3 questions in your last sentence:
(1) hopefully yes
(2) for what you paid.....definitely!
(3) how about that NASCAR Bristol race tonight!

Hang in there,
coffee

 

[oldcrow82]

Good boots will need to be broken in (so I've learned). My packers, were very snug in a few spots when new. Upon advice from some old timers, I filled the boots with water and let them air dry outside for the afternoon. They definately loosened up, yet not enough to be comfortably worn all day. After a week of pain I finally jumped in the pool with my packers laced up as tight as I could get them. I then wore them around doing chores in letting them dry around my foot (loathe some experience walking around in wet boots). What a difference that made. The leather stretched significantly in my troubled spots.
Probably not quite the same thing as the RRL's appear to be tight in an area not in direct stress while being worn, but for those of you longing to make these work I can attest to give this method a try.
Post script; A good coat of boot oil after the fact will help them not dry out too much or shrink after drying.

 

[too much coffee]

oldcrow82;

How's them fires up around you. They pretty much got a handle on them?

coffee

 

[illumin8em]

First off, if that picture is of you, your boots look great! They look to be breaking in very gracefully.

It's not easy, but it is manageable with the right technique. I am pulling in the back, then the front, and going back and forth until they slowly slip on.

truth be told, I never would have given them this much effort had you not mentioned that you had the same problem and overcame it. .

It is of me last week, I just cropped out the rest of me.

The technique you have described is the very same I practice for putting on and taking off. After I accepted that these weren't going to be easy on and off like my Red Wing 1155s that I have worn since I was a little kid, I gained patience for these boots. It's not bad now, and still gets a little better every day

I should have mentioned another thread on another forum with 5 or 6 other fellas having the same struggle, same boots some months ago, but I don't know the cross forum etiquette on such things. They stuck with it, and I believe are happy with the decision.

On the basic questions about keeping. Well, I am a poor, older than average college student, who does not smoke, drink, or gamble and choose to spend my money on well crafted, hopefully domestically sourced things be it fishing rods, clothes, or boots etc. Anymore "worth what I paid" is seldom on my mind due only to the amount of time I take asking questions and researching before I buy. I know not everyone can do that, So I am happy to step up and speak for the quality of something that I have/had and feel should be applauded. I have also been very disappointed by things that felt confident buying (through said research) but falling short of my expectations and needed returned or sold. So I understand the dilemma.

By the way, if anyone wants it, I have a super secret method to inconspicuously stretch an ill fitting boot shaft, which
I have used for a lady whose ankle width/tiny foot did not allow her to wear pull on boots in her size

 

[SkyCapt.]

I have the RRL boots also, the shaft is a problem with getting them on. Illumin8em I would like to know the secret.

 

[oldcrow82]

oldcrow82;

How's them fires up around you. They pretty much got a handle on them?

coffee

Not quite! ... Boy, I'd sure like to rant about beaurocrats acting like beaurocrats, but I won't (not here at least).