Ebay Hats: Victories, Defeats, Gripes & Items of Interest

[deadlyhandsome]

Two-for-one deal. Not expecting much as they are newer hats, but they are on their way and I’ll know soon enough [emoji4]
This is a brand I’ve been wanting to try, but I’m looking for older French hats and not these US made “in name only” hats. Still....


Homburg:

Matching stingy:

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[humanshoes]

My hat shop didn't really feel complete without this Tonak topper. Can't really be a mad hatter without one. Down the rabbit hole, indeed!

 

[alanfgag]

That is certainly debatable.....as a member of the fabric care industry I can tell you not all rayon is the same (and silk for that mater, so many different weaves for both actually). Rayon is different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and not only the weave but the composition can be substantially different. Rayon is a cellulose (think cotton) fabric made from a range of plant materials and fibers, again depending on the manufacturer. It is even made from bamboo. Rayon can be VERY durable, strong and long lasting. Silk on the other hand is a single source (insect, generally not silk worms actually, silk is obtained from many insects) protein material and is strongest in its unfinished raw state (when spun into longer fiber elements) it's fiber (strength is even stronger than a similar steel fiber element) contains much more protein than finish silk. Finished silk is produced through a wash process that removes certain elements from the fibers (including much of the protein) producing a thinner fiber that has the "sheen" silk is generally known for. This produces a weaker fabric that generally needs enhancement (for body and drape) as it is extremely light and thin on it's own.
I have seen early rayon examples from the 30's far outlast similar finish silk textiles of the same period.
Just, Saying.....
M

I'm not sure of the source for this information. As far as I know, although many insects secrete a form of "silk" only two species of caterpillars are used in the commercial production of silk and tussah. Rayon, first used commercially in fabrics in the first decade of the 20th century, is made from wood fibre, though it is blended with many other materials, some of which do increase the strength and resiliency of the resulting fabric. I have many examples of rayon hat ribbons that have worn poorly over the years. I only have a handful of examples of silk hat ribbons in very old hats. They have held up remarkably well and show the amazing lustre and drape that rayon once hoped to duplicate at a lower cost. A couple of examples below, both pre-1910.

 

[M Hatman]

I'm not sure of the source for this information. As far as I know, although many insects secrete a form of "silk" only two species of caterpillars are used in the commercial production of silk and tussah. Rayon, first used commercially in fabrics in the first decade of the 20th century, is made from wood fibre, though it is blended with many other materials, some of which do increase the strength and resiliency of the resulting fabric. I have many examples of rayon hat ribbons that have worn poorly over the years. I only have a handful of examples of silk hat ribbons in very old hats. They have held up remarkably well and show the amazing lustre and drape that rayon once hoped to duplicate at a lower cost. A couple of examples below, both pre-1910.

View attachment 123750

View attachment 123751

You are right about silk coming from largely two caterpillar species but it also comes from certain spiders as well. I did not read my statement clearly and meant to indicate it did not come from just one source. Darn auto save keeps notifying me over my typing.....BUT the rest of my diatribe is quite valid.

Your experience differs from mine....nothing wrong with that. BUT, rayon IS NOT just made from wood pulp. It is and has been made from everything from reclaimed cotton to bamboo. It actually started out as an acetate/nitrocellulose fabric with little resemblance to what later developed and what we have now. I have been in the industry for over 30 years and have worked with all sorts of textiles. Not sure what your experience is. Did NOT want to start a war over this....... I have my experience and you have yours. BUT while I do respect yours, you seem to take the position that your opinion is the only correct one.

I would be interested to know just how sure you are of the composition of the ribbons on your hats..rayon ribbons and liners have been used for some long time now.........a microscope,burn test, and spectograph would tell you for sure. There are other tests as well.

I was talking old finish silk and spun silk if you read my post fully. And no mater what you think, silk IS especially subject to multiple sources of deterioration. Not only do I have hats to examine BUT I have clothing and textiles dating back 200 years in my collection. I have been a collector of textiles for over 40 years. I also work with different museums in archival sciences (preservation) and best practices for their collections. I specialize in the care and storage of vintage and antique textiles and have done this, again, for over 30 years. Finish silk is, and will always be, fragile, as a trip to ANY museum with textiles or large textile collections will quickly evident.

If Wikipedia is YOUR resource you may wish to consult with persons actually in the industry of production and textile care (though they do have some things right, Wikipedia that is). Not sure what you are trying to prove here........

Allan I truly admire your hat collection and expertise, But I feel I am as free to express my opinion AND experience just as much as you, with the same validity you do. I was quite unaware this forum was a one man show.......You have YOUR personal opinion.....I have mine. Let the READERS determine who they feel is the more valid (if either). I was simply offering MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and observations through the years......

My apologies to everyone that this thread has gone astray......I suppose this proves another reason many of us are stepping back.

All the best to the rest,
M

 

[alanfgag]

If Wikipedia is YOUR resource you may wish to consult with persons actually in the industry of production and textile care,

No need to carry the discussion further. My most trusted source for fabric information is my wife, who is a a costume designer and university professional with 40 years experience.

My comments about the strength of silk are directed towards its performance in hat trimming... not in it's resistance to dry rot, mildew or other issues of survival or archival storage.

 

[MondoFW]

Rayon, first used commercially in fabrics in the first decade of the 20th century

I thought rayon was first introduced in the 1930's?

 

[alanfgag]

I thought rayon was first introduced in the 1930's?

That old nemesis Wikipedia will give an earlier date on the introduction and first use of rayon.

 

[M Hatman]

I thought rayon was first introduced in the 1930's?

Rayon in it's more practical forms removed from the Nitrocellulose/Acetate materials discovered in the later part of the 19th century, the rayon much more akin to the rayon as we now know it.....yes.
M

 

[M Hatman]

No need to carry the discussion further. My most trusted source for fabric information is my wife, who is a a costume designer and university professional with 40 years experience.

My comments about the strength of silk are directed towards its performance in hat trimming... not in it's resistance to dry rot, mildew or other issues of survival or archival storage.

Though you addressed much more than that initially AND argued against my very specific positions in a vague way......Oh...and ...yes......40 years of costume design just got me..I bow to your excellence...GOOD BY!!
M

 

[M Hatman]

Oh, and SORRY.....I forgot this was Allen's thread and I am not supposed to reply to anybody!!!
Again my apologies......
M

 

[alanfgag]

Though you addressed much more than that initially AND argued against my very specific positions in a vague way......Oh...and ...yes......40 years of costume design just got me..I bow to your excellence...GOOD BY!!
M

I'm not sure the reason for your anger. I am sharing a few observations from my collection of hats, which is fortunate to include some very early examples with silk trimmings. I am more than happy to see and be persuaded to a different position by your examples.

 

[M Hatman]

I'm not sure the reason for your anger. I am sharing a few observations from my collection of hats, which is fortunate to include some very early examples with silk trimmings. I am more than happy to see and be persuaded to a different position by your examples.

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Allen, this has progressed from the practicality of acquiring a vintage top hat and using it reguarly to quite somthing else.....
I was addressing THAT and comparing the general state and longevity of a vintage silk topper to my recommendation of using a vintage felt topper(if a vintage must be used). I then commented on my and others experience with vintage silks........
YOU ignored that topic, improperly referenced rayon and it went from there. Not sure where you came to go to "hats with silk trimmings" but you really went out of your way not to address the majority ofwhat I posted anyway....oh well.
I was and have been discussing the veracity of regularly using a vintage silk top hat (or any vintage silk item really) and added MY experiences with vintage silks..which you unceremoniously dismissed.........then you brought up rayon (I was not even discussing it at the time) and fish-hooked this discussion and me into another realm.......yes I am culpable........
I THINK I am safe in saying we all would recommend for regular use and knocking about........new is the way to go.......which is really all I was saying to begin with.
This is the absolute last time I will address this issue and will NOT be again fish-hooked into a differant topic of "show us all your vintage hats with silk trimmings" as I loose that one...........your LARGE vintage small hat collection far outstrips my SMALL vintage large hat collection (though I have handled hundreds in museum collections through the years). And while I may get off the hat area here and post some of my vintage textiles......it will just not be now......
Peace brothers,
M

 

[MondoFW]

Too lazy to read the previous replies--so IS a vintage topper practical or are they merely collectors' items?

 

[alanfgag]

Too lazy to read the previous replies--so IS a vintage topper practical or are they merely collectors' items?

Absolutely practical. The challenge I find is to have a fitting occasion to wear it.

 

[alanfgag]

Beautiful Collection!!!!! Just beautiful!!!

I too have found some awesome clean nice examples, BUT, have had bad luck when actually trying to wear the SILK examples. This is especially true with the folding opera hats, where the silk and stitching soon begin to give way with even the gentlest repeated use. Like the true silk (not the rayon or blends) ribbons and bindings on our old fedoras, the silk is a rather fragile element....even when impeccably stored.

Allen, this has progressed from the practicality of acquiring a vintage top hat and using it reguarly to quite somthing else.....
I was addressing THAT and comparing the general state and longevity of a vintage silk topper to my recommendation of using a vintage felt topper(if a vintage must be used). I then commented on my and others experience with vintage silks........
YOU ignored that topic, improperly referenced rayon and it went from there.

I believe you rayoned first.

 

[alanfgag]

No such luck. When I get my topper it will undoubtably be of recent manufacture.

There are quite a few for sale much of the time. If the seller's measurements are accurate, this would be a 7 1/2:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/332689493665

Definitely requires confirmation of size and condition. But they do exist if you hunt. A bottle of Fabri-tac from Joann's will help with minor repairs to the interior sweatband.

 

[MondoFW]

Here's the inside of a 1940s Stetson boater I just won. Does anyone have any knowledge of the "Medalist" model line? Were they wartime hats?

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Anyone win either of the Montecristi 100X Super Premium furfelts?

 

[splintercellsz]

late 30s/40s C&K

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[MondoFW]

late 30s/40s C&K

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Fantastic find, Justin. I have no idea how you strike up these gems!