Early War Birds or Late War Birds?

[up196]

Consolidared New Orleans

1944

 

[MikeyB17]

Root, the B-25H was a pretty impressive aircraft, all right. Apart from the 75mm cannon it carried 14 50 cal's and could also carry a torpedo or 3200 pounds of bombs! They built 1000 of them at the Inglewood plant. Apparently the 75mm was not a great success, it was innaccurate with a slow rate of fire and the guys loading them were pretty hard of hearing before too long!
I was lucky enough to see a PBY Catalina flying at RAF St.Mawgan near me a few years ago. One that I'd love to see fly is a Short Sunderland, a mighty aircraft if ever there was one. I've been inside the one at the RAF museum at Hendon (huge!), but I believe there are only a couple left flying and neither is in the UK. The Royal Australian Air force used to operate them at RAF Mountbatten, Plymouth, which is not too far from me.

 

[Wild Root]

Hello MikeB-17! The B-25 just was a swell plane! I’m aware of the many capabilities that plane had other then the 75mm. It was a nice idea, but wasn’t very accurate as you pointed out. As the B-25 progressed, more guns were added! It was an impressive plane and still is today to see them still in the air!

The PBY I believe there are a few that remain flying today. Not sure on the current number, but I know there are a good hand full. There are only a few that are restored to WWII condition though. I’ll look into it and get back on that one.

These planes are such fun to see and to hear! Nothing like the sound of a B-17 flying over my house! Rattles the windows!

Take care all,

Root.

 

[MikeyB17]

B-25's-always for me associated with Catch-22, one of my favourite films, especially that opening sequence when they're all taking off. Also that film has some of the nicest A-2 jackets of any film, IMHO.

 

[up196]

And now, for something completely different . . .

A Fiesler Storch:

 

[Wild Root]

Yes, that is a bird of a different flock! Germen aircraft of the war had such different designs then those made by the Allies and other Axis powers.

Thanks for sharing!

Root.

This is a German plane that I like. Junker's have had some really unique designs. This is a Ju 52 that I love.

 

[Wild Root]

Now a war time photo of a Junker's Ju 52.

 

[up196]

B=26B/C

Originally posted by up196
. . . they have one on display at Jackson Barracks along with the nose of a second showing both the 26B and C types. I'll try to get over there this week and take some pictures . . .

I finally got over there Monday. Unfortunately, the display is on an active military installation and they no longer allow visitors to take photos on the base. I guess now my license plate is on the HSA watch list. Oh well . . .

 

[Grit]

?¢‚ǨÀúAlways?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ was a good film! I liked it very much. It was a remake of the 1942 Film A Guy Named Joe. The PBY was a nice touch to the film seeing that I love that plane as well! How cool would it be to have a PBY Catalina! I love flying boats.

The A-26 had 8 50's mounted in the nose in the first model is much like the B-25J's. The B-25J came with two different noses. My self, I like the Martin B-26 in the way of looks and design. Looks more like a WWII bomber. They sent the B-25J hard nose with the 8 50's to most Pacific theaters for strafing ships and small island air fields. Any one know much about the B-25H? This had a 75mm cannon that was mounted in the nose just under the pilot's seat! A crew member would have to crawl under the cockpit to get to this single fire cannon. A crew member once said that when that cannon was fired, he would swear that the plane flew backwards for a second!

Root.

The New England Air Museum has a B-25H, when I saw it years ago they had one of the 75mm guns displayed alongside so you could see how far into the fuselage it went. The gun was loaded by the navigator, who now occupied the right seat in the cockpit since the B-25H was designed as a single-pilot aircraft and didn't have a co-pilot. The top turrent was also moved forward, since the navigator now sat up front instead of behind the cockpit. See it here: http://www.neam.org/inventory/airprofile.asp?ID=86

I seem to remember reading at the museum that the idea came from a crew stationed in Africa who performed a "field modification" (man, I love that term) as sort of a lark, and liked the results. Apparently they'd line up the target with the .50s, then pull the trigger on the big gun--BOOM! I also seem to recall reading that the cannon was the largest gun ever mounted in an aircraft, but I'm not sure if that was to-date or still a true. In any event, that's a BIG round.

Worked on shipping, too.

I'm not much into helicopters, but if you are the New England Air Museum is definitely worth a visit (Sikorsky is based nearby, and seems to have donated heavily).

 

[Fletch]

Early Birds!

Among the endless wealth of historical goodies the Library of Congress has put online at their site http://memory.loc.gov is a 66-photo shoot taken in early 1942 of the original squadron of YB-17s based at Langley Field, Virginia.

These were the first dozen Forts taken by the AAC in 1937, the stars of many a newsreel and PR demo in the peaceful prewar years. In truth they were the only truly up-to-date fighting planes we had then in a very small and tight-budget military.

Interestingly enough, the YB-17s here are in olive drab paint, as were all active duty Army planes at the time, although they would never see action and would soon be sent to training schools and eventually the scrap heap.

YB-17 photo gallery, 1942

About the "Y" in YB-17: This stood for a trial procurement, the next step after "X", experimental.
No "XB-17" was ever on the roster, as the prototype crashed and burned in 1935 before the Army approved the project.

 

[Fletch]

Apologies

The LOC has made the links to search results time-sensitive, as they would prefer people didn't link to them.

But you can go to http://memory.loc.gov and type such phrases as yb-17 or langley field into the search window to see the shoot.

Put in just b-17 and you'll get hundreds of hits for B-17Fs on the assembly line at Boeing!

 

[GreyWolf]

Oddly enough the UK publication Aeroplane has an editorial in their Feb 07 edition bemoaning the lack of preserved aircraft from the late 30s and early 40s. They note only 2 Stukas preserved, one in quite poor condition in Chicago and one in London, mocked up to look like a dive bomber though actually a tank buster varient, plus the lack of Lockheed Hudsons and Bristol Blenheims to mention but a few. No AW Whitleys surviving, no Manchesters, Stirlings, the only Hampdens 2 recovered wrecks and until recently no intact Halifax! Plenty of others too from other nations. We need more!!

 

[Fletch]

Some warbird forum had a discussion along those lines. It actually involved the famous Swoose, the last shark-tailed B-17 left. (The Smithsonian has it but has no plans to ever exhibit it.)

The guys were speculating what it would cost to rebuild a partial Fort hulk into a prewar model. $2 million perhaps, and even then it might not fly.

Then someone commented that no one would recognize the early variant as a Fort anyway, and that its lousy combat record was another good reason not to revive its memory.

 

[Twitch]

Interesting thread you dug up here. Those early planes were the mainstay of air combat until new and improved models came along. Pilots learned to use the strengths of their aircraft, avoid fights that exposed their weaknesses and exploited the enemy's planes weaknesses. That in a nutshell was the formula to success in the early days.

 

[Fletch]

I guess our hands were tied during the '30s because we didn't spy on other nations – and didn't even guard against espionage on our own soil.

Another problem – despite the '20s and '30s being the air age – was that military aviation was actually in no little disrepute. It was considered career suicide for any air officer to speak up or agitate about strategy or wars to come. Billy Mitchell had gotten himself drummed right out of the service for doing so in 1925, and the ground Army and surface Navy dug in their heels even deeper afterwards: the only proper role for aviation was support. It took Nazi Germany to set a new example.

 

[dhermann1]

Favorite early WW2 planes

I've always liked some of the really hokey old British designs, like the Gloster Gladiator and the Fairey Swordfish. The French had some absolutely appalling designs in the late 30's. Also, how about the Bewster Buffalo, and my favorite carrier plane, the Douglas Dauntless, the plane that won the Battle of Midway. There's a website called Luftwaffe 1946 that has astounding images of German designs that were in various stages of development at the end of the war.
I've always the the P-61 Black Widow was a really cool machine. And of course, the magnificent DeHavilland Mosquito! (Must see film: 633 Squadron, with Cliff Robertson, but really starring the airplanes!)

 

[WH1]

I've always liked some of the really hokey old British designs, like the Gloster Gladiator and the Fairey Swordfish. The French had some absolutely appalling designs in the late 30's. Also, how about the Bewster Buffalo, and my favorite carrier plane, the Douglas Dauntless, the plane that won the Battle of Midway. There's a website called Luftwaffe 1946 that has astounding images of German designs that were in various stages of development at the end of the war.
I've always the the P-61 Black Widow was a really cool machine. And of course, the magnificent DeHavilland Mosquito! (Must see film: 633 Squadron, with Cliff Robertson, but really starring the airplanes!)

Must be a Marine thing because you just listed almost all of the planes I was thinking of while reading this thread. I was also thinking of the Black Widow and the Mosquito. The other also a brit plane is the Hawker Hurricane the work horse of the battle of britain. The one I would love to own is the F4F wildcat in Cactus Airforce markings. Those Marine pilots on Guadalcanal did amazing things with that bird against the Zero.

 

[rongoms]

(snip) It would be so cool to see an YB-17 fling around today!

Root.

You know, i get to see a X(Y)B-17 flying around every day. My Lovely Wife (tm) is a former trademark and copyright attorney for the Boeing Company. She's VERY good friends with some of the archivists and the restoration team....

One day, she calls me and said the found something kind of cool in the trash at work. (i'm a little taken aback at this, she makes pretty good money being a lawyer and all)

Anyway, she arrives home from work that day and calls me out to the car, where she greets me with this:

This, my friends, is the First Flight, of the X(Y)B-17, 19 June 1935. It's flying over the famous Plant 2, which a couple short years later was camoflagued to look like one of the surrounding neighborhoods.
I cannot say how cool it is to see this photograph every morning.

Reason #4998765 why i love my wife.
Edit: She tells me that i should let you all know about the new site Boeing has launched, Boeing Images. You can find nearlyabything they've ever build or modified. Have Fun.

 

[Fletch]

Fantastic.

What a find...Of course you know there was no B-17, X or Y, yet. It was still just model 299. The Army hadn't approved the plane - and almost didn't after it crashed and burned on a later flight.

October 30, 1935. Model 299 takes off from Wright Field, OH, for a test flight under Maj. Pete Hill, the Army's chief test pilot. Boeing's Les Tower is in the right seat. 3 others are aboard to observe.

A mechanism allows the 299's huge control surfaces to be locked on the ground to prevent damage from high winds. But it is a new feature and easily overlooked in preflight.
The controls are still locked on takeoff.

The big ship leaves the runway and soon stalls in its climb. Unable to respond to its pilots, it turns sharply and noses into the ground in a ball of flame.
Two lieutenants rush into the fire to rescue Hill and Tower, both of whom die of their injuries within a few days. The others survive the crash.

Over a year passes before funding is granted for the first test squadron of B-17s. Meanwhile, the contract for which Boeing was in contention is let to Douglas for their twin-engine B-18 Bolo.

 

[rongoms]

Yes, it's truly the 299, but it's maked on the negative as X(Y)B-17.

It's interesting the way the merger has pitted one group of archivists against the other within the company. The "Douglas" people are quite militant about their history and go to great lengths to always show some MD superiority over Boeing products. It's almost comical.