Did the Rules of Etiquette Provide a Greater Sense of Safety For Women?

[ChrisB]

For me simpler only means that I was not expected to be available 24/7. My cell phone has become an electronic ball and chain. I am an engineer, so I am certainly no Luddite, but I see both the positives and negatives of technology. I suppose that in 50 years, people will look back on us and say that we lived in simpler times.

 

[Paisley]

What is the point of all this embittered cynicism?

Is it not possible that some (many? most?) women prefer to be stay-at-home moms?

My mother did -- she later had a career, but couldn't wait to "return home."

Same for my wife, aunt, numerous cousins, and just about all the women in my densely populated 1950s neighborhood. Careers were pursued for financial reasons (Elizabeth Warren talks about this in her book called something like The Two Income Trap). Careers are mostly an unavoidable crock, for both men and women.

Would any of these women have told you their frustrations or if they regretted marriage and/or kids? I'm not being cynical, I'm being realistic. There are women who love being stay-at-home moms, women who hate it, and everything in between.

From an evolutionary standpoint, genes are selected for survival of the species, not individual happiness.

 

[Angus Forbes]

I don't think that you are being realistic at all, Paisley. Whether they would have explicitly stated their feelings or not (and my mother and aunt certainly would have), people around them could gauge their feelings by their actions and attitudes. But I do agree with you that there is undoubtedly a full spectrum of feelings, although I might disagree with you regarding the preponderance of those feelings. What I do object to, wholeheartedly and categorically, is the out-of-hand dismissal of stay-at-home moms as being unhappy, put upon, and inconsequential (although I would not accuse you of such beliefs without knowing you better).

 

[LizzieMaine]

Would any of these women have told you their frustrations or if they regretted marriage and/or kids? I'm not being cynical, I'm being realistic. There are women who love being stay-at-home moms, women who hate it, and everything in between.

One way of determining how women in the Era actually felt about such questions is to consult actual opinion surveys taken at the time. These surveys are not burdened with selective nostalgia, stereotyping or strawmanning, and had the additional benefit of being confidential, so the women questioned felt free to respond without fear of retribution or censure.

One of the most useful such surveys was conducted by the Educational Department of the United Auto Workers in 1945. Well over 100,000 women carred UAW cards at that time, and the union wanted to know what they thought about their working life, why they worked, and whether they wanted to continue working after the war. *Over 85 percent of those women *wanted and fully intended* to continue working after the war. They weren't working "just until the men come home," and they weren't working solely out of economic need. They were working because *they wanted to work,* because they didn't want to be cooped up in a house all day. Note too that these weren't white-collar career jobs. This was heavy industrial work, and the women who were doing the work found a fulfillment in it that they weren't getting at home. (A full discussion of this survey can be found in Elizabeth Hawes' 1946 book "Hurry Up Please, It's Time." Hawes was the UAW staffer in charge of conducting the study.)

As far as personal anecdotal evidence goes, my grandmother, born in 1911 and married due to accidential pregnancy in 1933, often expressed regrets over how her life turned out. She had intended to become a nurse, but had to drop out of school to get married, and while she loved my grandfather very much, she hated the fact that the four walls of her kitchen circumscribed her life. She was not solely a homemaker -- she kept books for our gas station for almost forty years, but that was no substitute for the life she wished she'd had.

 

[LizzieMaine]

For me simpler only means that I was not expected to be available 24/7. My cell phone has become an electronic ball and chain. I am an engineer, so I am certainly no Luddite, but I see both the positives and negatives of technology. I suppose that in 50 years, people will look back on us and say that we lived in simpler times.

One would hope, though, that before another fifty years pass, humanity will realize that just as it willingly donned that ball and chain, it has the power to cast it off. There is nothing more pitiful than a slave who chooses to remain a slave.

 

[Angus Forbes]

Perhaps an element of class is involved. My experience has been with the middle class and above. Or perhaps envy?

Some (many? most?) weren't cooped up in the kitchen. They visited with neighbors; they played golf, cards, and tennis; they did volunteer work; they helped kids with homework; they gave dinner and cocktail parties; they shopped (oh, the horror of it); and so forth. As far as I could tell, it was quite a good life.

Moreover, citing the UAW survey in this context is not meaningful. The survey concerns (only) women who worked at a time when anyone who wanted work could find it. In other words, it does not reflect the opinions of the multitude of women who chose not to work at the time (and who could have found work, had they wanted to). Consequently, the survey is completely meaningless in the context of this discussion.

 

[BlueTrain]

I never knew anyone, man or woman, who played golf, cards, or tennis, did volunteer work, helped kids with homework or gave parties. The kids tended to be better educated than their parents before they graduated from high school. There are indeed, class differences.

I also find comments about women working outside of the home to be equally class-differentiated. Store clerks were invariably women. Some factory work had always been women's work and even in the plant where I worked for nearly 15 years, there were more women than men. Many, though hardly most, teaching positions were filled by women and for a long time, a teacher could not be a mother, too. It was simply not done. I have no idea of the whys and wherefores of those women who worked, my comments not being based on a survey but rather on what I saw with my own eyes.

As far as a fond remembrance of youth, none of the adults I knew when I was little ever expressed any. They all came of age during the depression or earlier. They would sometimes talk about it but for the most part, they went straight from being a child to an adult, trying to find a regular job when they were teenagers. None of them lived the life that Andy Hardy did. Or Nancy Drew.

But when I married, I was suddenly part of a family that did, after a fashion. There were some cultural clashes, all minor, but my father-in-law was a college kid and the son of a Ivy League father. On the mother's side, everyone seemed to be associated with private schools. There's even an author and two lawyers in the family now. And I'm someone who had even lived in a log house with no inside toilet while still in high school.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I never knew anyone, man or woman, who played golf, cards, or tennis, did volunteer work, helped kids with homework or gave parties. The kids tended to be better educated than their parents before they graduated from high school. There are indeed, class differences.

Indeed. This is the kind of stuff that people talked about doing on TV, but the people in my world had no more in common with them than they did the crew of the USS Enterprise in the year 2266. The only exception would be card playing -- most of the people I knew, men and women alike, played poker, usually in loose kitchen-table games on Friday or Saturday night for small stakes. But golf? Tennis? "Dinner parties?" "Volunteering?" Not a chance. Labor power was not a commodity one could afford to give away for free.

Nearly all the women I knew growing up worked in some way. My mother was a telephone operator when I was born, and continued in that job until she was made obsolete by the coming of dial service. She then took a job as a cook in a nursing home -- ironic, since she couldn't cook at all -- and later ended up working the admissions desk in a hospital for twenty-five years. Her friend next door worked on the line in a poultry slaughterhouse. Others worked in motels, as grocery clerks, as bookkeepers or office help, or as teachers -- and in our district there was not and hadn't been since before WWI any issue with teachers being married or having children. And my grandmother, as mentioned, while she didn't leave the house for her job, she was in charge of all bookkeeping and billing for the family business from the early 1940s until I took over for her when I was seventeen.

The biggest manufacturing industries in the area I grew up were poultry processing and fish packing. In both cases, the workforces were and had always been overwhelmingly female because women had the greater manual dexterity required to do the jobs. Men dominated on the docks -- although I had an aunt who held a card in the Longshoremen's Union and could sling tapioca and potatoes as well as any man -- and in the fertilizer factories on the waterfront. My own time on a factory line was spent mostly in a plant that made t-shirts, with a workforce that was almost 90 percent female -- you'd hear women yelling across the floor over the noise of the machinery "HEY GERRY, YOU GITCHA PERIOD YET?" It was a very dainty, refined and feminine environment. Except instead of taking a Woodbury Beauty Bath at the end of the day, we sprayed ourselves with naphtha to get the ink and the grease off.

In short, I never grew up around anyone, or ever really knew anyone, who genuinely held the idea that "a woman's place was in the home" as anything but an ironic phrase along the lines of Ralph Kramden proclaiming himself King of His Castle. To hear it suggested today makes me think of Alice, setting her hands on her hips and snorting "Forget it, Ralph."

So yes, it was a very working class environment. And demographically, the US was predominantly a blue-collar working-class country for the first two-thirds of the 20th century until the full effects of the postwar GI Bill were made manifest.

 

[Angus Forbes]

There's a world of difference between saying "a woman's place is in the home" and saying "many women would be happier if they would/could stay home." I disagree with the first, and agree with the second.

 

[BlueTrain]

Traditionally, women generally worked alongside men. That is, among the "working class." That didn't apply to the ruling class, of course, or very rich merchants. Most people were working class. It isn't something to be proud of, exactly, because it was hardly an achievement. That's what you were born to be and that's what the priest at the village parish said. That was probably still being preached in the 17th and 18th century in the local parishes in this state (there being only one legal church, the established church). Everyone attended, including the slaves. It may have been the social highpoint of the week for most. There were few things the women did not do. In towns then and for the previous centuries, you worked in the same building where you lived and your wife or your husband was right there with you. It was indeed a simpler time, though harder and with no prospect of change.

 

[belfastboy]

There's a world of difference between saying "a woman's place is in the home" and saying "many women would be happier if they would/could stay home." I disagree with the first, and agree with the second.

It is interesting that recent studies show that the more open and equal a society the more marked are the gender choices. In other words in societies where woman do have choices their choices generally skew to the professions considered more "female". This would include choosing to be a full time Mom. As well as choosing not to enter STEM professions inspite of the myriad government programs to encourage female participation.

 

[sheeplady]

My brother-in-law described me upon meeting me as "very domestic."

I can cook, bake, sew, garden, and crochet. I can get blood out of a stone and feed a family of 4 on $50 a week (if I had to). I'm decently financially savvy. I can do home do-it-yourself projects that most men I know couldn't even begin. I take huge pride in my home. I don't wear pants. I prefer to wear lipstick when I leave the house. I'm, as one of my colleagues said, "feminine as [insert word here]."

That said, I HATE staying at home. I have a career. I am better balanced when I work outside the home, and currently I'd like to retire at age 70 or 75, God willing I live that long. But I nearly have no desire to stop working, perhaps cutting back to 50 or 25% of my workload, but I still want to be active in my job. And believe me, I have enough hobbies to fill 5 retirements.

 

[BlueTrain]

Good luck to you. I'm 71 this month and I haven't retired yet. I would like to but I'm not sure if I ever will, for a number of reasons.

 

[LizzieMaine]

My mother retired at 72 or 73 -- not because she wanted to, but because she couldn't handle a 35 mile drive each way anymore, especially in the winter. And she hates hates hates retirement. She spends most of her days now on Facebook, batting back and forth with the people she used to work with, because that's all the recreation she can afford.

I have no interest whatever in retiring. My plan and hope is that I die on the job, expiring in the projection booth in the middle of a particularly self-important Belgian art film.

 

[BlueTrain]

a particularly self-important Belgian art film.

You certainly have a way with words.

 

[Edward]

Concerning nostalgia, I think there are two kinds, too, though not necessarily the same as Miss Lizzie mentions. There is the sort of longing for something we never experienced, real or fantastic. We may have a romantic notion of the high Middle Ages and living in a castle. Few lived in castles and castles were nowhere as nice a place to live as a little suburban house made of ticky-tack. Most people lived at the foot of the hill in a rough house with their animals.

This type of nostalgia is extremely common in the UK, and typically focusses in two ways - one is a glamorised version of the fifties or the sixties (if the former, it's almost entirely an Americanised picture), the other, perhaps more disturbingly, is a weird fixation with WW2 that seems peculiarly common to certain social groups within England. The notion that the Blitz was a grand old time, when everyone came together to fight Jerry, and we had a right old laugh. Oddly enough, such people often have far more in common with "Jerry" in their social attitudes! Typically given short shrift by those who lived through it.

I have zero sense of personal nostalgia. The past, and particularly my past, is better left there.

I nearly have no idea why anyone would want to go backwards in their lives. I understand people had fewer obligations... but didn't you have less power and freedom?
.

I find the same. I wouldn't say that there were large tracts of my life I regretted or anything, but by and large I find life has improved as I've gotten older. I'm eternally grateful that, despite the occasional visits by the Black Dog, this remains so; I've known a few folks here and there who suffer terribly from Tom Buchanan syndrome, and it's not pretty.

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible" - Frank Zappa

With advancing years, it becomes harder to not fall under the spell of nostalgia. However I do think that life was simpler (not necessarily better overall) before the age of instant communication and information overload brought about by cell phones and the internet.

It was different. I went through my first degree without access to the web; even in my postgraduate career, Powerpoint and such weren't commonly used. I first used the web as an adult in 1995. I certainly wouldn't give up the advantages I have with it now, though certainly it is necessary to set reasonable boundaries and expectations - such as not answering work emails over the weekend. To be fair, it's rarely the University who expect this sort of thing, and more students who have been given unrealistic expectations via a heady combination of the encroachment into education of consumerist diction and behaviour, and the rapid rise in fees.

In some ways, people are working harder because of technology. Fifteen years ago, my employer could hire a temp to fill in for me if I called in sick. Now, the technology for the same job has become so much more complicated that that isn't possible. When I return to work, I come back to a big stack of assignments to be done.

I think this depends a lot on the job, too. As an academic, if I am away for a week, nobody picks up my stuff. If a Colleague goes on sabbatical, either their course doesn't run, or we all have to take on their work. In all honesty, I have a large mental block about taking holidays often because it's so spirit crushing to come back from a break and be a week behind. But hey, I'm not exactly down the mines. It's indoor work with no heavy lifting...

It is interesting that recent studies show that the more open and equal a society the more marked are the gender choices. In other words in societies where woman do have choices their choices generally skew to the professions considered more "female". This would include choosing to be a full time Mom. As well as choosing not to enter STEM professions inspite of the myriad government programs to encourage female participation.

The key point, of course, being that in such open and equal societies, it is indeed a choice.

My mother retired at 72 or 73 -- not because she wanted to, but because she couldn't handle a 35 mile drive each way anymore, especially in the winter. And she hates hates hates retirement. She spends most of her days now on Facebook, batting back and forth with the people she used to work with, because that's all the recreation she can afford.

I have no interest whatever in retiring. My plan and hope is that I die on the job, expiring in the projection booth in the middle of a particularly self-important Belgian art film.

I'm hoping that my pension, when it kicks in (I think at 68 now) will mean I can afford to go part time, but yeah, I don't expect ever to be able to afford to live the life I'd like and retire permanently. In any case, my current contract runs until 2039, and while I'm very grateful for the job security in that, I'm not honestly sure I expect to live that long.

 

[sheeplady]

Every provider I see at my oncology office asks me each visit if i am "still able to perform the duties i am required to do at my place of employment" and if my "disability makes it difficult to do my job." I even have a questionnaire I have to fill out which asks me the same questions when I see my physical therapist. The nurses will ask me, "are you still able to work?" too.

This annoys me to no end.

My current plan is to outlive and out work them all just to prove a point. I have the advantage of being younger than all my providers, but my doctors new nurse is a year younger, so she's gonna give me a run for my money.

 

[BlueTrain]

My mother-in-law's cousin lived past 100. My mother-in-law is 95, though not in as good a shape as her cousin was. My son-in-law's grandmother (on his father's side) served in the R.A.F. in WWII and is still alive. It's a long lived family. The one who was in the RAF has interesting comments about the blitz, being a Londoner.

 

[Fading Fast]

My mother retired at 72 or 73 -- not because she wanted to, but because she couldn't handle a 35 mile drive each way anymore, especially in the winter. And she hates hates hates retirement. She spends most of her days now on Facebook, batting back and forth with the people she used to work with, because that's all the recreation she can afford.

I have no interest whatever in retiring. My plan and hope is that I die on the job, expiring in the projection booth in the middle of a particularly self-important Belgian art film.

No way. It has to be Steinbeck and "Grapes of Wrath" seems right to me. Your head slumps over and stops the film just as the movie gets to one of the brutal scenes where there is not enough food. You slump, film stops, scene glows then the film burns from not moving - fade to black.

But do me a favor and stick around for awhile.

 

[Fading Fast]

Every provider I see at my oncology office asks me each visit if i am "still able to perform the duties i am required to do at my place of employment" and if my "disability makes it difficult to do my job." I even have a questionnaire I have to fill out which asks me the same questions when I see my physical therapist. The nurses will ask me, "are you still able to work?" too.

This annoys me to no end.

My current plan is to outlive and out work them all just to prove a point. I have the advantage of being younger than all my providers, but my doctors new nurse is a year younger, so she's gonna give me a run for my money.

My money's on and wishes are with you. Give 'em hell and soldier on.