Diamond Dave L-2A

[Big J]

@CBI, thank you for posting that, it's nice to see that at least they've tried to give a nod to authenticity
But you forgot to post the next paragraph DD wrote, you know, the one where he isn't talking about the jacket but instead talking about me; 'troll', 'hater' and shill with a 'conflict of interests' DD also claims that I'm cowardly calling him out on FL instead of at VLJ. What's up with that? Is there a reason DD can't comment here? Is he banned? Why should I comment on a forum where the owner of GW is a moderator?
I've been talking about THE JACKET. DD wants to talk about me.
This is a mistake. As a small business owner, he should appreciate that critical feedback on your products and services is invaluable in developing better products and services.
Sometimes there will be feedback that he may disagree with. Address the message or not at your peril. Attack the messenger and maybe he should ask himself if he has the skills and emotional maturity to run his own business, or whether he would just make a better employee.
Attacking me as a person will not rectify inaccuracies in his products.
After all, he's such 'a nice guy' as long as he's in a 'yes man' echo-chamber?

 

[BobJ]

That's why I went for the jerky hide on my Aero A-2. The Vicenza is wonderful, but it looks to "polished" for my idea of a wartime production jacket.

I've been meaning to ask you for some time, how is that jerky horsehide breaking in? Still stiff, or getting soft? How much do you wear it? Thanks, Bob

 

[nick123]

@CBI, thank you for posting that, it's nice to see that at least they've tried to give a nod to authenticity
But you forgot to post the next paragraph DD wrote, you know, the one where he isn't talking about the jacket but instead talking about me; 'troll', 'hater' and shill with a 'conflict of interests' DD also claims that I'm cowardly calling him out on FL instead of at VLJ. What's up with that? Is there a reason DD can't comment here? Is he banned? Why should I comment on a forum where the owner of GW is a moderator?
I've been talking about THE JACKET. DD wants to talk about me.
This is a mistake. As a small business owner, he should appreciate that critical feedback on your products and services is invaluable in developing better products and services.
Sometimes there will be feedback that he may disagree with. Address the message or not at your peril. Attack the messenger and maybe he should ask himself if he has the skills and emotional maturity to run his own business, or whether he would just make a better employee.
Attacking me as a person will not rectify inaccuracies in his products.
After all, he's such 'a nice guy' as long as he's in a 'yes man' echo-chamber?

Did GW or DD ever proclaim themselves as kings of the jungle or was this crown awarded to them by those who appreciated their product? I don't recall either ever being boisterous about their jackets, despite being very true to detail. All of John's posts have been really cordial here. I think they deserve a little slack to embark on a little artistic freedom here.

 

[Big J]

@nick123, they can have as much artistic freedom as they want, but then they have to be open and honest with customers that this is not a hyper-accurate reproduction, but rather an 'artistic re-interpretation' (or something like that). They can't have it both ways (as DD is attempting to on VLJ) by saying 'our jacket is more accurate than other repros because of the decal and fit' and then make 'concessions' and 'nods' to 'modernity' and 'wearability'. Those two ideas are opposites. They can't both be true at the same time. They are mutually exclusive ideas.
But worse than that is that GW/DD customer culture is one of over-hyping the product uncritically as 'the best' (it seems) in that no one feels able to offer any critical feedback. Despite the fact that this jacket is not an accurate repro, despite DD admitting that it's not (and then trying to say it is at the same time) everyone's too under the GW/DD spell to call him out on it (or maybe they are afraid of provoking the wrath of DD by telling him something he doesn't want to hear? After all, there's a reason he can't post here).
Without the GW association, would these jackets still be beyond criticism?
The need to be honest about what they're offering.
$500 for a 'looks like an L-2A at first glance' L-2A costume? Yeah, no wonder DD is hyper-sensitive and defensive about it!
Kerrr-CHING!
Make a proper repro or 'your modern take' on an L-2A. Can't have both at once.
(Or maybe I should say nothing? As Napoleon said, 'Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake').

 

[nick123]

@nick123, they can have as much artistic freedom as they want, but then they have to be open and honest with customers that this is not a hyper-accurate reproduction, but rather an 'artistic re-interpretation' (or something like that). They can't have it both ways (as DD is attempting to on VLJ) by saying 'our jacket is more accurate than other repros because of the decal and fit' and then make 'concessions' and 'nods' to 'modernity' and 'wearability'. Those two ideas are opposites. They can't both be true at the same time. They are mutually exclusive ideas.
But worse than that is that GW/DD customer culture is one of over-hyping the product uncritically as 'the best' (it seems) in that no one feels able to offer any critical feedback. Despite the fact that this jacket is not an accurate repro, despite DD admitting that it's not (and then trying to say it is at the same time) everyone's too under the GW/DD spell to call him out on it (or maybe they are afraid of provoking the wrath of DD by telling him something he doesn't want to hear? After all, there's a reason he can't post here).
Without the GW association, would these jackets still be beyond criticism?
The need to be honest about what they're offering.
$500 for a 'looks like an L-2A at first glance' L-2A costume? Yeah, no wonder DD is hyper-sensitive and defensive about it!
Kerrr-CHING!
Make a proper repro or 'your modern take' on an L-2A. Can't have both at once.
(Or maybe I should say nothing? As Napoleon said, 'Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake').

If it is being proclaimed as a totally accurate repro marginalizing others then point taken and I agree. I think the $500 price is okay for someone requiring a longer, or custom, quality L-2 jacket.

Side note- I liked Charles' post with the Buzz Rickson quest to get the most accurate nylon composition. That was one of the most fascinating posts I've ever seen.

And OP's jacket looks good to me.

Quieting my mouth before I get too gossipy!

 

[Cocker]

(Or maybe I should say nothing? As Napoleon said, 'Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake').

I understand your gripes against some choices DD is making (and, as I said, I share some of them), but I think this is somewhat getting ridiculous. It's now looking more like a personal vendetta than anything else...

@BobJ the jacket is now soft as butter! It became comfortable pretty quickly and is now somewhat a second skin.

 

[Fonzie]

@CBI, thank you for posting that, it's nice to see that at least they've tried to give a nod to authenticity
But you forgot to post the next paragraph DD wrote, you know, the one where he isn't talking about the jacket but instead talking about me; 'troll', 'hater' and shill with a 'conflict of interests' DD also claims that I'm cowardly calling him out on FL instead of at VLJ. What's up with that? Is there a reason DD can't comment here? Is he banned? Why should I comment on a forum where the owner of GW is a moderator?
I've been talking about THE JACKET. DD wants to talk about me.
This is a mistake. As a small business owner, he should appreciate that critical feedback on your products and services is invaluable in developing better products and services.
Sometimes there will be feedback that he may disagree with. Address the message or not at your peril. Attack the messenger and maybe he should ask himself if he has the skills and emotional maturity to run his own business, or whether he would just make a better employee.
Attacking me as a person will not rectify inaccuracies in his products.
After all, he's such 'a nice guy' as long as he's in a 'yes man' echo-chamber?

I’ve never owned or seen in person neither DD nor GW products, but as an outsider, your comments sound like you hate them and have a personal agenda against those brands.
Maybe a little more decorum would help keep this forum more corteous, if your intention really isn’t to damage the reputation of those makers.

 

[Big J]

@Fonzie, both you and DD want to talk about me.
Let's talk about the JACKET.
What do you think about the jacket?
How accurate do you think a repro should be for $500?
How much can you change before it stops being a reproduction and becomes a fashion jacket?

Let's talk about that.
It's not about me or DD as people, it's about the $500 jacket.

 

[Fonzie]

I have no interest in that jacket personally and I don’t really like it that much, as it’s not my style nor I’m a connoisseur of the vintage military repro world, but price is always a subjective thing.
Everyone decides what personal value give to things and no one is the arbiter of other people’s personal taste and choices if it doesn’t concern anyone else.
I do think that the jacket in question fits really well to CBI and if he’s happy paying $500 for it, good in him.
It doesn’t matter how much you spend as long as you get the desired effect.

Ps: I wasn’t talking about you personally, as you imply, but on how does the tone of your posts sound from an onlooker’s perspective.
There’s no need to be angry, it’s just pieces of fabric stitched together.

 

[Big J]

Ok Fonzie, I got you. You don't want to talk about the jacket, you want to talk about about me.

 

[Otter]

Chill out BigJ this can't be doing your blood pressure any good; it's only a jacket after all.

 

[Gav]

Ok Fonzie, I got you. You don't want to talk about the jacket, you want to talk about about me.

There’s logic for you.

 

[CBI]

Just too mean spirited. Mods, its OK with me if you lock it down. I don't see the point of it continuing.

I have loads of jackets I can post pics of, I don't mind if people don't like them but this kind of dialogue does not interest me.

DONE

 

[HPA Rep]

<snip>

On the matter of accuracy versus compromise for modern tastes, it's an interesting one. I remember back when ELC was more of a name in these parts, people sometimes used to question why they wouldn't do M2M or custom fit and such, and I always used to think ,well, if they market themselves off the back of being "historically accurate" and then make a whole bunch of A2s that are cut four inches longer to meet modern 501s with a low waist, then a lot of the target market will likely see those and think "Oh.... histrocially accurate? I don't think so!" After all, the product you put out there is what you'll be judged by. It's the same reason Ken cut back on the 'whatever you want' customisation approach of 2004-2012 Aero: noone is gonig to stop and think "Well, that's what the customer wanted", just: "Aero, yuk!" if the customer gets it wrong, so they have to think carefully about what they let leave the factory, as that is what people will judge them by. Protecting the brand. Goodwear has always been marketed off the back of being uber-accurate, so this does seem a risky move to me. I struggle to imagine people being prepared to spend GW money on an A2 or a civilain jacket, then having so little interest in the rst of the vintage look as to not care about the rest of their clothes. Still, we all know it does happen (used to be aguy in these parts who obsessed over eveyr detail of the length of his jacket, yet he was happy wearing Crocs!), so many John simply knows his market. I would say - with no ill intent or criticism towards DD meant - that people who want one of John's jackets will want to be buying one made by John as a "true" Goodwear, and so won't necessarily look to one o the DD GWs as indicative of the John jackets. It will be interesting to see how well these sell, though: myself, I've long wanted an L2A but to date haven't been able to bring myself to spend that kind of money on what is, in the last instance, a very simple nylon windbreaker, just because only the high-end makers can get the colour quite right. It's different when buying custom and you can spec it out; I know with OTR stuff, more generally, I tend to stop reading when the sales blurb says anything like "modified for modern tastes".

What you cited about deviations from authenticity and consumer perception without attendant knowledge of this deviation is one huge reason why ELC stopped offering customizations, though not the only reason. Back when ELC did still offer such modifications, I recall several conversations with Gary Eastman where I really had to twist arms to get the customer the modifications they wanted, and Gary expressed that he was seriously thinking of curtailing such work to minimal changes, which ended up happening a few years later, and then resulting in pulling the plug on modifications altogether a bit later yet for the stated reason and others.

Separately, I've always found it interesting how more customers than not will fail to see value in making jackets from fabric in its most authentic form vs. leather, too often dismissing fabric jackets much as Edward stated (and I'm not busting on you, Edward): it's "a very simple nylon windbreaker." While it is true that something like an L-2A or M-41 Field Jacket are indeed simple windbreakers, so is an A-2 a simple, leather windbreaker.

People spend thousands of dollars on simple, wool blazers, suits, and trousers, but yet these buyers seem informed enough to know that some fabrics are indeed very, very costly to produce, and this is, as I stated earlier in this thread, no different for the fabrics requisite to render near-perfect copies of vintage jackets from 50-plus years ago. I would argue that you can purchase yardage of Harris Tweed for less than the cost required to purchase equal amounts of the proper outer shell or lining for an L-2A, so why should the Harris Tweed blazer be deemed much more acceptable at the prices they command? It's all about branding and having a far wider market, but the logic I typically hear being employed for arguing against costly reproductions of fabrics used in making vintage jackets simply fails.

Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, but making textiles to the high standards being discussed here with attendant prices that are quite dear cannot be simply dismissed by virtue of the fact that these are a textile (not leather) or that the overall design is simple in nature, while still accepting at face value that the finest suits, trousers, and blazers are worth four-figure prices.

It is also interesting to me that no reproduction maker I know of has gotten the lining fabric for the A-2 more perfected than its current form. Some do a better job than others, and some top, top-tier makers are simply buying available yard goods and not getting costly production runs made exclusively for them, but none have truly nailed down the supreme density of the vintage linings and the correct hand. I don't recall anyone ever mentioning this detail in all the thousands of A-2 posts and printed words, which tells me the cheers are louder than the eyes are critical from all of the fan clubs.

 

[HPA Rep]

a bit more info from DD:

As to zips, all sliders are NOS on these jackets. Many #5 zipper chains are reproductions from Japan, but all sliders are originals. All #10 zippers are completely original NOS examples both slider and chain.

Snaps fasteners are original examples of DOT branded snaps, made by United Carr.

And yes, pencil protectors made in brass and plated in nickel are included in each jacket's cigarette pocket. These were heavily researched, and we found that the items are still made today.

Thank you very much, CBI, for adding this info. You have helped us understand some of what is going into make these $500 worth of jacket.

I am skeptical, however, about claims that "all sliders are originals," NOT at all due to you, but the source. I recall such claims on some earlier GW A-2 jackets where, in my observation, the web photos were deliberately obscuring or outright obliterating zipper names and small zipper details, which in my opinion was because these were reproduction zips displaying brand names and details that would clearly expose them as reproductions that fell within the realm of TM infringement, so claiming these parts to be original without actually showing this to be the case could have been a clever device to cover tracks. Of course, the photos could have been one-off situations, but why were the photos obscured in such a way?

If you can, please advise when you are able to learn about the great pains and costs that went into the R&D and making the nylon and the blended linings.

Thank you very much for your contributions in this regard, sir.

 

[Edward]

Separately, I've always found it interesting how more customers than not will fail to see value in making jackets from fabric in its most authentic form vs. leather, too often dismissing fabric jackets much as Edward stated (and I'm not busting on you, Edward): it's "a very simple nylon windbreaker." While it is true that something like an L-2A or M-41 Field Jacket are indeed simple windbreakers, so is an A-2 a simple, leather windbreaker.

Fair angle. An A2 is anotehr design I'd only be able to bring myself to spend so much on for me personally owing to tending to find more complex civilian designs feel, somehow, more worth the money. Not that there's any logic to it all, of course: there's no reason why, all other thngs being equal, leather is inherently 'worth more' than a textile jacket. I'd say the big part of it is that there is a dearth of big, sexy films that really 'sell' the nylon jackets in a way the A2 has. If Virgil Hilts had worn an L2A..... (Well, he'd have been historically all out of whack, but you follow the point....). I think for me the thing is that, having limited resources, it's harder to justify the big bucks on a nylon jacket where 'close enough' s available in a way that isn't really the case for leather. Maybe the relative durability of leather comes into it over nylon. I do like the Buzz one I have a lot, though. I can't compare it to items I haven't handled, though it is just that little bit nicer than my Alpha Replica.

 

[kowalski]

@CBI, thank you for posting that, it's nice to see that at least they've tried to give a nod to authenticity
But you forgot to post the next paragraph DD wrote, you know, the one where he isn't talking about the jacket but instead talking about me; 'troll', 'hater' and shill with a 'conflict of interests' DD also claims that I'm cowardly calling him out on FL instead of at VLJ. What's up with that? Is there a reason DD can't comment here? Is he banned? Why should I comment on a forum where the owner of GW is a moderator?
I've been talking about THE JACKET. DD wants to talk about me.
This is a mistake. As a small business owner, he should appreciate that critical feedback on your products and services is invaluable in developing better products and services.
Sometimes there will be feedback that he may disagree with. Address the message or not at your peril. Attack the messenger and maybe he should ask himself if he has the skills and emotional maturity to run his own business, or whether he would just make a better employee.
Attacking me as a person will not rectify inaccuracies in his products.
After all, he's such 'a nice guy' as long as he's in a 'yes man' echo-chamber?

His attitude (DD) towards you excludes him in my eyes, and his jackets.
(have bad energy, it is only set for profit )

 

[Fonzie]

Ok Fonzie, I got you. You don't want to talk about the jacket, you want to talk about about me.

Either you really don’t get it or are just looking for attention. Either way, I’m done.


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