Diamond Dave L-2A

[Sloan1874]

I owned an original Cable contract A-2 for a while. Never actually wore it, but the thing that struck me was how rough the production was: collar stitching wonky, collar mishapen, wrong length of zip tape had been installed - the seamstress had obviously run out of the standard ones, so they had stretched it to fit the jacket. This must have worked for a while but eventually the tape shrank back to its original length, distorting the jacket front.
I do have a GW on order, not because of any cultish devotion, more because I really fancy a particular Dubow he makes. I absolutely won't buy from Bill Kelso and Japanese makers are equally if not more expensive, and I know that John's going to produce a spot-on jacket at the end. Mind you, with the pound cratering, I'm going to have to get lucky on the Lottery to be able to shoulder the cost...

 

[Edward]

Yes, I feel for you, watching the pound crash against the dollar! Way back in the day I was actually looking at John's A2s. That was around 2008, when the pound was riding high at USD2.2, an Aero was around GBP300 for an A2, an ELC GBP350, and a Goodwear would have cost me 400. Then the pound slumped, and suddenly the GW, without changing US price, was GP600 and I couldn't justify it. Price increases since then just made it a price that didn't work for me, but that has shot way up as the pound has dropped in value. I keep saying if this trend continues I'll be using fivers instead of Andrex, as it'll work out cheaper!

On the matter of accuracy versus compromise for modern tastes, it's an interesting one. I remember back when ELC was more of a name in these parts, people sometimes used to question why they wouldn't do M2M or custom fit and such, and I always used to think ,well, if they market themselves off the back of being "historically accurate" and then make a whole bunch of A2s that are cut four inches longer to meet modern 501s with a low waist, then a lot of the target market will likely see those and think "Oh.... histrocially accurate? I don't think so!" After all, the product you put out there is what you'll be judged by. It's the same reason Ken cut back on the 'whatever you want' customisation approach of 2004-2012 Aero: noone is gonig to stop and think "Well, that's what the customer wanted", just: "Aero, yuk!" if the customer gets it wrong, so they have to think carefully about what they let leave the factory, as that is what people will judge them by. Protecting the brand. Goodwear has always been marketed off the back of being uber-accurate, so this does seem a risky move to me. I struggle to imagine people being prepared to spend GW money on an A2 or a civilain jacket, then having so little interest in the rst of the vintage look as to not care about the rest of their clothes. Still, we all know it does happen (used to be aguy in these parts who obsessed over eveyr detail of the length of his jacket, yet he was happy wearing Crocs!), so many John simply knows his market. I would say - with no ill intent or criticism towards DD meant - that people who want one of John's jackets will want to be buying one made by John as a "true" Goodwear, and so won't necessarily look to one o the DD GWs as indicative of the John jackets. It will be interesting to see how well these sell, though: myself, I've long wanted an L2A but to date haven't been able to bring myself to spend that kind of money on what is, in the last instance, a very simple nylon windbreaker, just because only the high-end makers can get the colour quite right. It's different when buying custom and you can spec it out; I know with OTR stuff, more generally, I tend to stop reading when the sales blurb says anything like "modified for modern tastes".

 

[Sloan1874]

Or ‘a modern take on vintage style’. Which if you boil it down, is almost anything you wear.

 

[HPA Rep]

If I may interject my observations and personal sentiments here, I would like to point out what is not being mentioned by anyone:

Firstly, I have no problem with any maker significantly modifying a vintage style of military jacket in fit for any reason as long as that maker is disclosing this to the consumer: Buzz Rickson's has modified select styles over the years, such as their best-selling William Gibson MA-1 jacket made in black nylon and in slenderized and also longer fittings (optional), and these details are readily disclosed as deviations from the pure form of the vintage examples. I would, however, question marketing a jacket as what would seem to be the maker's hallmark specimen but which does significantly deviate in fit from the vintage specimens and where the "modified" form (where the modification is what actually follows true, vintage design) is available on request. This conjures up thoughts of Avirex in the past (possibly even now), where one could request a B-3 jacket made more closely to WWII specs. with sleeve facings, no hand warmer pockets, heavier belts on collar and hips, etc., yet the main example they marketed was the "deviated" style purists would deem a "fashion" or "modernized" B-3.

Producing TRULY exacting reproduction garments from long ago that will indeed live up to the highest scrutiny, most especially those made from fabrics (cotton, wool, nylon, etc.), requires not just extreme dedication and a laser-focussed eye for detail, but lots, and lots, and lots of money, and a ready market for the end product one has invested in because textile production and related R&D would be costly in time and finances in the extreme, with minimum production numbers in the thousands of yards for just one fabric type and color, or even-higher costs per yard to buy only hundreds of yards.

Knowing what I know of the consumer market in the world today, and especially in N. America, I feel extremely safe in saying that companies such as Alpha, Avirex, Gibson & Barnes, U. S. Wings, etc. are likely selling the most nylon jackets of any makers and they are NOT going to any sort of great lengths (i. e. extremely costly lengths) to precisely copy the outer nylon and linings as employed in government-contracted production from the 1950's & '60's because the wholesale and retail prices requisite for such items would NOT commensurate with a profitable demand. It is only in niche production, and most importantly in Japan, that an interest exists to justify the outlay in time and cost to go all out. There is just not enough interest in N. America alone, and for that matter, the world, to justify making such specialized fabric without Japan being the primary selling market.

I know well what Buzz Rickson's did to go all out in making the outer nylon and blended linings in their USAF nylon flying jackets and the cost and R&D time was staggering. But that was all done back in the early 1990's when USAF nylon flying jackets and USA flying jackets, in general, were actually fashionable items being sold in amazing numbers in Japan by many makers in mainstream Japanese stores. It is questionable if the time and money expended over 25 years ago to get the ball rolling and establish the brand's worldwide reputation would be justifiable today; presently, they just need to keep doing what they have been doing, so while it remains highly costly to make the fabrics, the initial time and money expended has long ago been made back.

If you carefully examine something such as a BR B-15C or MA-1, you will see that they are buying two shades of the outer shell and one shade of the inner nylon (which is not the same composition as the outer shell), so three nylon fabrics are needed to make one jacket style that reflects amazing authenticity, where the inside pocket trimmings are made from a different color shade thus duplicating original production with its attendant shifts in dye lots. And these are fabrics custom made using vintage machinery and techniques!

Please have a look at a bio piece below that was written by me about 12 years ago to be translated into Japanese for BR's PR use. It specifically was targeting their Lion Uniform MA-1, but the process employed in developing fabrics is the same for all of their nylon materials, whether blended linings or heavy 2/2 or 3/1 nylon twill:

Buzz Rickson’s Obsessive Road to Near-Perfection: The first step in making the MA-1 jacket was to clarify the exact time the material was made by examining the structure of the fiber, weaving method, and spinning technology available in 1957. Since the jacket was nylon, existing nylon specimens from the late 1950’s were examined to confirm the nylon melting point and conduct an infrared ray-spectrum analysis to determine the change in infrared rays and temperature. Two types of nylon were known to be used at the time of the production of the first MA-1 and it was difficult to precisely determine which of the two was employed for the MA-1 production.

A lab test was conducted that measured the melting point (see photo) and examined the change inflicted by the infrared rays (see photo). The lab findings revealed that nylon #6 melts at 215°C and nylon #66 melts at 225°C; from this, it was clear the MA-1 was made using nylon #66 because Buzz Rickson’s sample had a melting point of 253.7°C. If Buzz Rickson’s was not already producing the unique material and had no way to obtain specifications for making the material, then they had to make the material themselves from scratch based on known examples using the testing methods outlined, which is exactly the case with their Lion Uniform MA-1. There have also been times when Buzz Rickson’s hasn't been able to make fabrics with the spinning and weaving machines available to them; in those cases, they were forced to find old broken-down spinning and weaving machines and repair them to achieve the fanatical results that a Buzz Rickson’s-engineered garment has become famous for.

The persistence for authenticity doesn’t simply end with fabric type and composition since correct colors and dyeing processes are equally important so the fabric will also look, react, and age in the way a true vintage garment has done. Dyeing with reactive dyes to make a chemical change is different from the dyeing methods used today; with the method employed by Buzz Rickson’s, the depth of color fades little by little rather than changing rapidly. The color of the Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 nylon fabric matches the unique depth of the original color. What Buzz Rickson’s learned was that each molecule had more than three colors in each fiber which produced the special depth of the sage green from the 1950’s we now know well, and Buzz Rickson's has achieved the ability to reproduce the color and depth of color through specially developed dyeing methods that generate even the correct degree of slow fading over time. The Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 is even outfitted with perfectly crafted copies of the famous Crown zippers from the era; a small fortune was spent by Buzz Rickson’s reproducing and trademark protecting their Crown zippers and these zips add a finishing touch of perfection to this all-time classic jacket style.

The obsessive practices outlined that were used to make the Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 are also set in motion for every item produced under this brand name. The directorship of Buzz Rickson’s realizes that aviator garments are particularly important to make correctly since the original garments were extremely costly to produce, having to go through thousands of hours of R&D using unfathomable amounts of testing and state-of-the-art equipment and fabrics to achieve what was, at the time of origin, the best item available to protect a very costly, special commodity – a U. S. aviator. Such obsessive attention to detail was glowingly written about in cutting-edge prose by bestselling novelist William Gibson in his bestselling 2003 novel, “Pattern Recognition,” where the novel’s heroine, Cayce Pollard, wears a Buzz Rickson’s black MA-1 jacket throughout the deftly written pages of suspense and intrigue while combating terrorism in a post-911 world of cyber bad guys.

So, my question, and the one no one is yet asking here is, where and how are the requisite nylon and blended fabrics being made? I say with reasonably high likelihood that the quantities required to execute anything remotely resembling the original manufacturing cannot be justified today for any small operations of the type we are discussing. It's possible to piggyback on someone else's order to help bring costs down, but they surely aren't marrying up with BR. Can someone please respond to the nature and composition of the fabrics, the type of machinery being used to create it, the dye techniques, the R&D methods employed, fading tests, etc.????

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for considering the thoughts and questions of this inquisitive, critical mind.

 

[EmergencyIan]

In the interest of full disclosure, I’m not familiar with L-2A jackets. I simply think it’s a nice looking jacket in navy blue. It looks well made and fits CBI great.

Frankly, I’d require an historically accurate version since I’m relatively slim and 5’7”. I’m assuming that, anyhow.

All of my repros are Buzz Rickson’s, minus one. I don’t have any leather jackets anymore, but John made me an A-2 in 2010 and it was terrific, but, for me, it wasn’t very practical in the pedestrian city that is NYC. I was either too hot in it or freezing. Besides those, the rest of my jackets and coats are vintage from denim to military. At size 38, I don’t have an issue finding and fitting into well preserved vintage garments.

Just my two cents.

- Ian

 

[Otter]

If I may interject my observations and personal sentiments here, I would like to point out what is not being mentioned by anyone:

Firstly, I have no problem with any maker significantly modifying a vintage style of military jacket in fit for any reason as long as that maker is disclosing this to the consumer: Buzz Rickson's has modified select styles over the years, such as their best-selling William Gibson MA-1 jacket made in black nylon and in slenderized and also longer fittings (optional), and these details are readily disclosed as deviations from the pure form of the vintage examples. I would, however, question marketing a jacket as what would seem to be the maker's hallmark specimen but which does significantly deviate in fit from the vintage specimens and where the "modified" form (where the modification is what actually follows true, vintage design) is available on request. This conjures up thoughts of Avirex in the past (possibly even now), where one could request a B-3 jacket made more closely to WWII specs. with sleeve facings, no hand warmer pockets, heavier belts on collar and hips, etc., yet the main example they marketed was the "deviated" style purists would deem a "fashion" or "modernized" B-3.

Producing TRULY exacting reproduction garments from long ago that will indeed live up to the highest scrutiny, most especially those made from fabrics (cotton, wool, nylon, etc.). requires not just extreme dedication and a laser-focussed eye for detail, but lots, and lots, and lots of money, and a ready market for the end product one has invested in because textile production and related R&D would be costly in time and finances in the extreme, with minimum production numbers in the thousands of yards for just one fabric type and color, or even-higher costs per yard to buy only hundreds of yards.

Knowing what I know of the consumer market in the world today, and especially in N. America, I feel extremely safe in saying that companies such as Alpha, Avirex, Gibson & Barnes, U. S. Wings, etc. are likely selling the most nylon jackets of any makers and they are NOT going to any sort of great lengths (i. e. extremely costly lengths) to precisely copy the outer nylon and linings as employed in government-contracted production from the 1950's & '60's because the wholesale and retail prices requisite for such items would NOT commensurate with a profitable demand. It is only in niche production, and most importantly in Japan, that an interest exists to justify the outlay in time and cost to go all out. There is just not enough interest in N. America alone, and for that matter, the world, to justify making such specialized fabric without Japan being the primary selling market.

I know well what Buzz Rickson's did to go all out in making the outer nylon and blended-nylon linings in their USAF nylon flying jackets and the cost and R&D time was staggering. But that was all done back in the early 1990's when USAF nylon flying jackets, and USA flying jackets, in general, were actually fashionable items being sold in amazing numbers in Japan by many makers in mainstream Japanese stores. It is questionable if the time and money expended over 25 years ago to get the ball rolling and establish the brand's worldwide reputation would be justifiable today; presently, they just need to keep doing what they have been doing, so while it remains highly costly to make the fabrics, the initial time and money expended has long ago been made back.

If you carefully examine something such as a BR B-15C or MA-1, you will see that they are buying two shades of the outer shell and one shade of the inner nylon (which is not the same composition as the outer shell), so three nylon fabrics are needed to make one jacket style that reflects amazing authenticity, where the inside pocket trimmings are made from a different color shade thus duplicating original production with its attendant shifts in dye lots. And these are fabrics custom made using vintage machinery and techniques!

Please have a look at a bio piece below that was written by me about 12 years ago to be translated into Japanese for BR's PR use. It specifically was targeting their Lion Uniform MA-1, but the process employed in developing fabrics is the same for all of their nylon materials, whether nylon-blended linings or heavy 2/2 or 3/1 nylon twill:

Buzz Rickson’s Obsessive Road to Near-Perfection: The first step in making the MA-1 jacket was to clarify the exact time the material was made by examining the structure of the fiber, weaving method, and spinning technology available in 1957. Since the jacket was nylon, existing nylon specimens from the late 1950’s were examined to confirm the nylon melting point and conduct an infrared ray-spectrum analysis to determine the change in infrared rays and temperature. Two types of nylon were known to be used at the time of the production of the first MA-1 and it was difficult to precisely determine which of the two was employed for the MA-1 production.

A lab test was conducted that measured the melting point (see photo) and examined the change inflicted by the infrared rays (see photo). The lab findings revealed that nylon #6 melts at 215°C and nylon #66 melts at 225°C; from this, it was clear the MA-1 was made using nylon #66 because Buzz Rickson’s sample had a melting point of 253.7°C. If Buzz Rickson’s was not already producing the unique material and had no way to obtain specifications for making the material, then they had to make the material themselves from scratch based on known examples using the testing methods outlined, which is exactly the case with their Lion Uniform MA-1. There have also been times when Buzz Rickson’s hasn't been able to make fabrics with the spinning and weaving machines available to them; in those cases, they were forced to find old broken-down spinning and weaving machines and repair them to achieve the fanatical results that a Buzz Rickson’s-engineered garment has become famous for.

The persistence for authenticity doesn’t simply end with fabric type and composition since correct colors and dyeing processes are equally important so the fabric will also look, react, and age in the way a true vintage garment has done. Dyeing with reactive dyes to make a chemical change is different from the dyeing methods used today; with the method employed by Buzz Rickson’s, the depth of color fades little by little rather than changing rapidly. The color of the Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 nylon fabric matches the unique depth of the original color. What Buzz Rickson’s learned was that each molecule had more than three colors in each fiber which produced the special depth of the sage green from the 1950’s we now know well, and Buzz Rickson's has achieved the ability to reproduce the color and depth of color through specially developed dyeing methods that generate even the correct degree of slow fading over time. The Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 is even outfitted with perfectly crafted copies of the famous Crown zippers from the era; a small fortune was spent by Buzz Rickson’s reproducing and trademark protecting their Crown zippers and these zips add a finishing touch of perfection to this all-time classic jacket style.

The obsessive practices outlined that were used to make the Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 are also set in motion for every item produced under this brand name. The directorship of Buzz Rickson’s realizes that aviator garments are particularly important to make correctly since the original garments were extremely costly to produce, having to go through thousands of hours of R&D using unfathomable amounts of testing and state-of-the-art equipment and fabrics to achieve what was, at the time of origin, the best item available to protect a very costly, special commodity – a U. S. aviator. Such obsessive attention to detail was glowingly written about in cutting-edge prose by bestselling novelist William Gibson in his bestselling 2003 novel, “Pattern Recognition,” where the novel’s heroine, Cayce Pollard, wears a Buzz Rickson’s black MA-1 jacket throughout the deftly written pages of suspense and intrigue while combating terrorism in a post-911 world of cyber bad guys.

View attachment 92762 View attachment 92763 View attachment 92765
View attachment 92766

So, my question, and the one no one is yet asking here is, where and how are the requisite nylon and nylon-blended fabrics being made? I say with reasonably high likelihood that the quantities required to execute anything remotely resembling the original manufacturing cannot be justified today for any small operations of the type we are discussing. It's possible to piggyback on someone else's order to help bring costs down, but they surely aren't marrying up with BR. Can someone please respond to the nature and composition of the fabrics, the type of machinery being used to create it, the dye techniques, the R&D methods employed, fading tests, etc.????

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for considering the thoughts and questions of this inquisitive, critical mind.

TLDNR

 

[Big J]

I agree with Edward; if your standard production jacket isn't 100% authentic fit and features, it's just a costume. Making inauthentic jackets because of the tastes of uninformed customers destroys brand image.

@Sloan, my 'most authentic' looking A-2 is my Aero Real Deal. It's the only one I own that looks like it came out of a WWII exhibition. My others are all too 'nice'. Maybe Ken should make apprentices make all their real deal jackets, I'm sure they'd look much closer to the real thing.

@Charles, yes! Exactly this! Scales of production and investment costs. Where is the GW/DD fabric coming from? Coz there's no way a Japanese manufacturer is going to sell to a rival having invested so much of their own time and money into production. Did GW/DD invest as much time and money into setting up their own production? Or are they simply using a fabric that just 'looks the same' to the uninitiated? I don't know. But for 500 bucks, they should be able to answer this kind of question.

 

[kowalski]

@Sloan, my 'most authentic' looking A-2 is my Aero Real Deal. It's the only one I own that looks like it came out of a WWII exhibition. l

Hi Big J

I have the same feelings .I have the same jacket Aero RD I chose her for the same reason
Best regards

 

[Big J]

@kowalski,
You know, when I went up in an F-4, I was kind of unnerved by how dirty it was. I mean, it was really dirty. Boot rubber marks down the fuselage where ground crew had slid down it, that sort of thing. It was nothing like the glossy F-4's I'd seen in museums as a kid.
Years later I learned that when Robin Olds' F-4C was put in a museum, he specified that it shouldn't be cleaned up or repainted. He wanted it to be authentic.
That's kind of what I see going on here with repro jackets. Real A-2s just weren't that good. The Aero Real Deal really captures that wartime sense of expediency.

 

[Cocker]

That's why I went for the jerky hide on my Aero A-2. The Vicenza is wonderful, but it looks to "polished" for my idea of a wartime production jacket.

 

[kowalski]

my 'most authentic' looking A-2 is my Aero Real Deal. It's the only one I own that looks like it came out of a WWII exhibition.

I love my old Aero RD
sorry for OT

 

[Big J]

@kowalski, that jacket is really, really nice!

 

[Big J]

I was just reading the thread on this jacket over on VLJ Forum. I had to give up on the first page!
DD is asked why his jackets don't have USAF decals on the left sleeve!
His reply? Customer appeal.
He then tries to get himself out of it by accusing all other manufacturers of having 'incorrect decals anyway'.
Hmm, other manufacturers might have 'incorrect decals', but at least they got 'em! You know what other manufacturers don't have? Patterns 3 inches too long.

That's 2 historical inaccuracy strikes against DD. Still a $500 jacket is it?

 

[kowalski]

I was just reading the thread on this jacket over on VLJ Forum. I had to give up on the first page!
DD is asked why his jackets don't have USAF decals on the left sleeve!
His reply? Customer appeal.
He then tries to get himself out of it by accusing all other manufacturers of having 'incorrect decals anyway'.
Hmm, other manufacturers might have 'incorrect decals', but at least they got 'em! You know what other manufacturers don't have? Patterns 3 inches too long.

That's 2 historical inaccuracy strikes against DD. Still a $500 jacket is it?

[QUOTE="Big J,?[/QUOTE]
I have read about it in forum . Justification DD seems to me makes no sense

 

[Cocker]

This one makes no sense at all for me neither. Moreover, I've tried applying an aftermarket USAF roundel on an Alpha L2 beater. Well, let's say it didn't go as planned... That doesn't worry me much on the Alpha, but on a DD 500$ jacket...

 

[HPA Rep]

I was just reading the thread on this jacket over on VLJ Forum. I had to give up on the first page!
DD is asked why his jackets don't have USAF decals on the left sleeve!
His reply? Customer appeal.
He then tries to get himself out of it by accusing all other manufacturers of having 'incorrect decals anyway'.
Hmm, other manufacturers might have 'incorrect decals', but at least they got 'em! You know what other manufacturers don't have? Patterns 3 inches too long.

That's 2 historical inaccuracy strikes against DD. Still a $500 jacket is it?

Hmmmm, so a customer needs to request the true vintage pattern of the jacket, purchase lining and shoulder decals (which came standard on the vintage jackets) from other sources, and I personally believe the customer would need to supply the correct lining and nylon shell to lend even greater authenticity (which the customers will not be able to source).

Oh, I forgot to ask, please advise what zippers are being used on the front and sleeve pocket, and do the pencil pockets have the brass caps to keep pencil points from puncturing the nylon fabric?

This is sounding like the scratch building we model makers have to do make the stock kits we buy look truly authentic.

 

[CBI]

wearing my DD L-2A today and loving it

 

[Otter]

I do like the look of that Monarch B-15 he has photos of over on VLJ. Very nice, I could see myself in that.

 

[Big J]

@Charles, yeah, I'm honestly totally confused by this jacket. Edward made an interesting observation about letting Aero customers modify their jackets and how that had the potential to de-value the brand.
And yet here we have GW/DD, who have staked their reputation on 'accuracy' making a jacket with so many 'nods' and 'concessions' to 'modern tastes' and 'fashion' that it's more of a costume than a repro, and with so many accuracy issues, customers really are paying for the name, not the product. Sad to see they've sold out, I wouldn't buy into the brand name.
GW/DD L-2A?
GW/DD L-2Alike.

If they weren't asking $500 for it, I wouldn't be nearly so scathing.

 

[CBI]

a bit more info from DD:

As to zips, all sliders are NOS on these jackets. Many #5 zipper chains are reproductions from Japan, but all sliders are originals. All #10 zippers are completely original NOS examples both slider and chain.

Snaps fasteners are original examples of DOT branded snaps, made by United Carr.

And yes, pencil protectors made in brass and plated in nickel are included in each jacket's cigarette pocket. These were heavily researched, and we found that the items are still made today.