Definition or Description of Noir

[MikeKardec]

I was discussing an upcoming comic book project on another website and, though the project is a western I described it as Noir. Someone wrote in and asked what Noir really was, feeling that it somehow equated with gangsters, so I wrote the following reply --

"It's sort of a general idea without any strict definition. I think that the term was created by a French Film critic or commentator after WWII. He was remarking on Hollywood films of the period (possibly the gangster films from before the war too), films that had been influenced by prewar German cinema and often used German directors and directors of cinematography who had escaped the Nazis ... needless to say their outlook on life was a bit bleak.

The best post war noir films did not necessarily have to do directly with crime or criminals (Mildred Pierce, Sunset Blvd., Lost Weekend) though many did (The Big Heat, The Set Up, D.O.A.,) ... I probably have those references a bit mixed when it comes to crime or not but they are all good examples.

The style also based on the great crime and thriller writers of the pre and post war period, Hammett, Chandler and, PARTICULARLY James M. Cain, Cornell Woolrich and Jim Thompson ... the last three guys didn't do much with gangsters or cops or private eyes ... they concentrated on petty or even unwilling or unwitting criminals. People who were pushed to the dark side by small flaws in their character or circumstances beyond their control.

That is where Law of the Desert Born (the comic book project) functions as Noir, it's not because it's in black and white ... many of the best Film Noir's are not, though that is how they may have gotten their name. It's the subject matter. A LOT of Hitchcock, in my opinion, was noir but after he left England he often preferred color.

Little man in a meat grinder of circumstance makes bad choices and has to find a way live with them.

In a way it was a response to all the square jawed, flawless heroes that populated Hollywood. After awhile they were totally predictable and, actually, not heroic ... what's heroic about someone who doesn't have to pay a price to do the right thing, someone who doesn't have to give anything up or change themselves in order to be good?"

The people on this site have a pretty keen sense of this genre and the time period it classically inhabited. I know I'm going to get this question again ... does anyone feel they could help me improve my response?

Thanks!

 

[MillersCrossing]

I too have long been fascinated by this genre. From what I understood it stemmed from a style of cinematography in post-war films where, much of the time, there were a great many shadows appearing on the screen, influenced by German impressionism if I'm not mistaken. The stories were also usually about people with ambiguous morals, drifters, conmen, femme fatales and the like, and that was also part of it. Oft times they were engaging in criminal activities, so there was that aspect that fed into it. Films made by the likes of Fritz Lang (Fury and M being two excellent examples) would also have fed into it. Orson Welles' Touch of Evil is a classic noir. The Asphalt Jungle by John Huston another.

If I remember correctly the phrase was originally coined by French film critics who were very interested in American movies and had detected a pattern in certain films, with lots of dramatic angles to emphasise emotions and drama and deep shadows, and that's where it sprung from. The original phrase was actually 'film noir' or dark film. But since then it has grown wider to encompass writers as well. I think it reached its high water mark in literature with Jim Thompson. Certainly I can't think of better examples of noir than The Killer Inside Me, or Pop 1280 or The Grifters.

I think its one of those elusive concepts where it is easier to point to a good example of it than to try define it in a sentence or phrase.

 

[MikeKardec]

Those are good examples! And it IS sort of like the difference between art and pornography ... you know it when you see it. I wonder if people would consider The Shield or Breaking Bad to be Noir. They don't have some of the visual qualities but the stories might be right out of the imaginations of Jim Thompson/James Ellroy and Cornell Woolrich. There is a Kafkaesque aspect to Breaking Bad's Walter White, sort of like the guy who wakes up to find himself a giant cockroach ... then tries to make the best of it and thus gets seduced into being the king cockroach. I always felt Kafka and Woolrich were kindred spirits.

 

[Wally_Hood]

Film noir is literally black film, and refers to both the subject matter and the amount of dark images in the film, i.e., scenes at night, or interiors. Like most of the arts and entertainment of the golden era, film noir was a product of its time. The basic plot and characters are much like the "Little man in a meat grinder of circumstance makes bad choices and has to find a way live with them" you cited. Burt Lancaster in The Killers says "I made a mistake, once..." which explains fatalistically how his character got in the no way out jam. An excellent podcast is Out of the Past which is dormant now but you can still download episodes. Various films and their literary sources are discussed at length in an intelligent and lively way.

I enjoy film noir a great deal, much to the grumbling of my family who flee whenever downbeat music and desperate characters appear on the screen. But good noir, such as Touch of Evil, Out of the Past, Mildred Pierce, Gilda, Detour, can be immensely entertaining, with a complex story line, a brooding sense of inevitability, and strong characters.

 

[MillersCrossing]

The Shield is definitely noir IMO because the universe they occupy is almost completely amoral, although in terms of visual execution its a bit too sunny a lot of the time. Such a brilliant show!

Those are good examples! And it IS sort of like the difference between art and pornography ... you know it when you see it. I wonder if people would consider The Shield or Breaking Bad to be Noir. They don't have some of the visual qualities but the stories might be right out of the imaginations of Jim Thompson/James Ellroy and Cornell Woolrich. There is a Kafkaesque aspect to Breaking Bad's Walter White, sort of like the guy who wakes up to find himself a giant cockroach ... then tries to make the best of it and thus gets seduced into being the king cockroach. I always felt Kafka and Woolrich were kindred spirits.

 

[MikeKardec]

To step away from "film" but sticking with Noir ... I'd say that The Shield occupies the sunny but deadly LA of Raymond Candler and Ross MacDonald. And story-wise The Shield could have been written by James Ellroy.

My project, now near completion, is a Western but there were some westerns that fit the Noir mold, at least to a certain extent. The work of Anthony Mann, for instance. My dad even had one of his westerns directed by Jacques Tourneur the director of Out of the past.

 

[Benzadmiral]

In terms of Westerns, I've always thought that Eastwood's "Unforgiven" is pretty noir-like.

 

[Feraud]

Some folks consider Bad Day at Black Rock a type of western/noir film.