Dare to Dream: Your "Ultimate" Leather Jacket

[Chamuco]

Well really I have my dream jacket. Aero zip sleeve brown FQHH Bootlegger. However, I could very easily lust after this hide in an Aero Work Coat....


..But then I'd need this to go with it...

Gorgeous color !!

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[Edward]

That's very cool! I'd love to read a review on one of these.

There are a couple of threads on the brand somewhere; I think posted by the guy behind the brand. They started out dealing in used Lewises, mainly, and then introduced their own range of near copies of the popular Lewis models.

 

[handymike]

Here's the only only one I remember:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/leather-monkeys-own-jackets-anyone-have-one.80503/

 

[Monitor]

The jackets on the site look really nice, though. I think someone did buy one of these, and was quite happy about it but I can't remember anything that would help me find the thread.

 

[GHT]

This time last year, I left my wife in the capable hands of her retail therapy friend, they went off to London's shopping mecca of Oxford Street, Regent Street and all the surrounding area. Meanwhile I caught the underground to Hendon, where I spent a very pleasurable couple of hours taking in the exhibits of the RAF Museum. Later, wandering around the gift shop, I came across this jacket. On the rack the label read: "Sheepskin Flying Jackets." Peering inside at the Jacket at the label, I saw a parachute emblem and the word Irvin with the letter 'V' forming the bottom part of the parachute. A tag was attached to the collar, it was quite a long tag, on it was all the care and cleaning instructions as well as details of the leather and sheepskin source. At the bottom, in print so small, I had to put my glasses on to read it, was the price. A snip at £900.

At that price I was wondering if I could rent one of the exhibits, just for posing purposes you understand, although I might be tempted if I had the odd million or ten.

 

[Edward]

Ouch, pricey! I think Aviation Leathercraft are cheaper direct, though. Nicely made, just a shame that, as the only company who can use the Irvin brand, they don't do an accurate repro.

 

[Sloan1874]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Plumbline]

I think the market for a "Accurate Repro" ... is significantly smaller than the market for a "Genuine Irvin"

I've bought a few Aviation Leathercraft Irvins and they're really well made jackets .. modern fit, excellent sheepskin and incredibly warm with the option for pockets or not. The "Lightweight Irvin" with pockets has to be one of the most practical sheepskin jackets I've ever owned ... two outer and two inner pockets, perfect sheepskin weight warm yet really flexible to wear and much cheaper than an "Accurate Repro" ... and a GENUINE IRVIN with an incredibly resilient resale value. It's one of my "regret sells" but the offer was too good to refuse.

They may not fit the "repro" market ..... but I'll bet more people are wearing them in their Lotus 7's than "Accurate Repro's" ... though I suspect few of their market will be found here on the boards of the lounge.

 

[Sloan1874]

I saw one guy, wearing what was obviously one of the Irvin brand jackets, levering himself into a what looked like a Lotus 7 and he looked happy as Larry. They just don't seem to have anything in common with the original jackets - colour or whatever - which seems a shame. You'd think they'd target the vintage niche in the same way Crombie does by reproducing its RAF great coats etc, pulling out the old patterns, sourcing some decent shearling and charging a premium. Doubt I'd buy one even then, but it'd be nice to know they were doing it.

 

[GHT]

Ouch, pricey! I think Aviation Leathercraft are cheaper direct, though. Nicely made, just a shame that, as the only company who can use the Irvin brand, they don't do an accurate repro.

Edward, or anyone else, coming from someone who has just two leather jackets, an original A2 and a modern Zahra, I'm somewhat ignorant of Leathers and what it is that constitutes a reproduction, so what is, an accurate repro? I'm not being facetious, what I'm curious about is, from what period is a reproduction taken? The best way I can explain myself is to use the: Pre-Order Rick's Trenchcoat thread. The coat is, arguably, an exact copy of Bogart's Casablanca Trenchcoat. Yet, it's material is a mix, some of which is polyester. Back in the day, it would have been gabardine and cotton. So is it an exact repro? Furthermore, is the Casablanca Trenchcoat the definitive Trench? Now transpose that analogy to Flying Jacket reproductions, and tell me, how does one, define a repro? A design from an exact moment in time, from materials used in manufacture, from the same manufacturer, or from identical patterns and so on and so on? Seriously, I'm curious.

 

[Edward]

Edward, or anyone else, coming from someone who has just two leather jackets, an original A2 and a modern Zahra, I'm somewhat ignorant of Leathers and what it is that constitutes a reproduction, so what is, an accurate repro? I'm not being facetious, what I'm curious about is, from what period is a reproduction taken? The best way I can explain myself is to use the: Pre-Order Rick's Trenchcoat thread. The coat is, arguably, an exact copy of Bogart's Casablanca Trenchcoat. Yet, it's material is a mix, some of which is polyester. Back in the day, it would have been gabardine and cotton. So is it an exact repro? Furthermore, is the Casablanca Trenchcoat the definitive Trench? Now transpose that analogy to Flying Jacket reproductions, and tell me, how does one, define a repro? A design from an exact moment in time, from materials used in manufacture, from the same manufacturer, or from identical patterns and so on and so on? Seriously, I'm curious.

It's a fair enough question. For me, a reproduction is all about getting as close to the original as possible (within the confines of budget / practicability, all those inevitable things). A perfect repro to me is a jacket that could conceivably have left the factory in 19xx, gone stright into a time machine, and come out the other side in 2016. 'Correct' design spec, cut, pattern, colours, materials.... All goes into it. With the military stuff that's all the more viable (and contentious!) because there was a uniform standard. A2s. for example, did have a particular specification, and enough originals have survived and been studied that it is possible to reproduce the individual quirks of the various contractors and subcontractors who produced jackets based on the official spec. Where you start to deviate from that, well... At what point does it stop being a repro? That's the question. Probably going to be a lot of folks with a lot of different opinions on here. I remember the guy that used to troll these boards with his incessant insistence that all modern jackets (especially Aero, for which he had an especial dislike) were "poor quality" because they were not "the real thing". Fro me, an A2 made with, say, FQHH or buffalo hide, but otherwise perfect to the original spec is clearly a repro - perhaps less accurate than some, given deviation from spec, but nonetheless a repro. Once you make it in cotton instead of leather, well.... it's a repro of sorts, but shooting for something very different. Change too many of the details so that it looks significantly different or it performs significantly differently, and it starts to become something else. Your A2 starts to become more one of those 'civilian flying-style jackets' that were popular in the late 40s / into the 50s - undoubtedly influenced by the A2 (and, to some extent, the B15), but not a reproduction as such.

Where it gets interesting to me is when you do something 'in the style of' - Aero and ELC both do 'house' A2s, for example. When the Bill Kelso brand was started, their only offering was a house A2, in the general style of the period. You'd never have picked it out as period incorrect in a line-up, yet it didn't reproduce any specific contract from that period. Aero styled one of the house models as 'the jacket we would have used as our sample if we were bidding for a new A2 contract in 1942'. There's a lot more of this sort of thing when it comes to the civilian designs from all manufacturers. Some models will reproduce an exact design (though perhaps in a different hide), while other models combine nods from several vintage originals to produce something new that's not so much vintage repro as 'vintage possible'. Given the vast range of options that were around in civilian clothing in the period, it's very hard to play the notion of 'accuracy' in the same way as if you're reproducing a specific item, whether of film-worn costume, or something that had to conform to a specific uniform standard.

The Bogie trench coat, assuming all other details were correct, would certainly be a repro in my opinion - less accurate than one in the "correct" cloth, but still a reproduction. It's then up to the individual what they want. Some folks will be happy with the compromise as they prefer modern materials for whatever reason (I've owned Burberry trenches in both all-cotton and cotton-poly, and to be frank I doubt many could even tell the difference by feel), while others will simply refuse anything whih is not 100% correct. I've talked to some guitar players who will openly acknowledge that even if there was a digitial amplifier created that looked, sounded and responded to player-touch in a manner where they could not distinguish it from valves, at a fraction of the price, they'd still opt for the valve-driven amp, because "it's the real thing". Other people will buy one brand of jacket because that brand originated the design, over a superior "copy". Perceptions of authenticity can be a strong influence on buyer choice. Make that Bogie trench in leather, though, and it's immediately a whole different beast... so clearly the right look plays a big part in repro. There will always be a niche group for whom dead-on accuracy is essential, then others who will compromise somewhat - the guys who want an A2, but with an inner pocket, or in a different leather, for instance. Then there will be folks who are more than happy with something vaguely 'inspired by', and don't care about the 'accuracy'. The latter don't tend so much to buy repros, ime; the market for the repro niche covers a very wide range indeed of what individuals find acceptable deviations from 'spec'.

In terms of the Aviation Leathercraft jackets, they don't tend to be so popular in these parts because they deviate markedly from the original jackets - fleece is different, and especially they have handwarmer pockets. For guys who really love the original RAF jackets, those are sticking points. Nonetheless, ALC do great business, mostly with the open-top vintage car crowd, who are buying into a specific style and look, but aren't interested in the same notion of 'autheticity' as the flying jacket fans.

Interestingly, there are also two very different factions with the accurate-flying jacket market - the folks who like jackets that look like they rolled off the production line today, and those who want their repro to look like a 70 year old jacket. In both cases, accuracy is paramount, and yet they're shooting for that from two very different perspectives. Some guys want to wear their jacket like it's 1945 and they got it, new, a few years ago. Those tend to be the guys who are into the whole vintage clothing look more. Then there are a lot of jacket fans who are guys who've grown up going to airshows, guys who loved original A2s long before they were as valuable as they are now, and either can no longer afford an original, or can't find one in their size, or have one, but want a jacket they can wear anywhere without worrying about ruining a piece of history. Such an individual's idea of an accurate repro is often markedly different in look to the former group, as they're not looking for a 'new' jacket, but rather one that has the appearance of being a decades old piece of history. Similarly, Fender produce several Stratocaster models that are accurate (to varying derees, according ot price) to the original 1950s specifications, coming out of the factory just like it still was 1954 or 1956 or 1957.... They also make a specific line of guitars which have been carefully, artificially aged to look like they were made back then, and then (variously) stored carefully under a bed, or taken on the road and played to within an inch of their lives, ever since. Some guys want the whole look and feel of 1957, other guys are looking for an affordable alternative to that 'real' vintage guitar that they would love but simply will never be able to afford (a Fender 'Relic' Repro is around GBP2,000; a ropey original 1954 Strat is going to be pushing over GBP20,000.....). Both apporaches are very much considered 'authentic', yet both rather different products....

There's another guitar allusion, interestingly.... A while back, there was some dispute about whether a particular Fender model could still be considered to be a "proper" Telecaster because of certain changes to its hardware and setup that removed elements long considered by many players to be key to that guitar model's "personality". Some said "No, it's something else, it's not a real Tele...", while others pointed out that Fender own the Telecaster RTM, so whatever they like to call a Telecaster, is. Equally, even the most accurate reproduction of a 1954 Telecaster by someone else will never be "the real thing" because it doesn't have the right to use the name. That's an interesting one to apply back to the ALC jacket, which may deviate in spec from the original WW2 jackets, but is the only one entitled to carry the 'Irvin' trademarked name nowadays.... Again, both arguably authentic in a sense, but very different animals...

Which is all a long-winded way of saying that an accurate reproduction is often in the eye of the beholder, where no specific notion of authenticity has been agreed....

 

[GHT]

Wow! Thanks, you thought that through. Well written, an interesting, if uncomfortable read. Your last sentence was a very good summary, my discomfort came from the guitar analogy. Not that I'm musical, but on my bucket list is, or was, The Wurlitzer 1015, or, One More Time, Juke Box. I have had the good fortune to have owned one for the last 26 years. It is of course, valve driven. But it's authenticity is now in question simply by your definitive statement. My Juke Box, plays 45's, the first 1015 only played 78's. Not that it really worries me, I'm just being whimsical, my Juke Box has actually gained considerably in value over the years.
How times change, how fashions, trends and tastes change. In the 60's, like all my peers, I owned a Mod scooter and the obligatory original parka. Secretly I didn't really like the parka, but at 16, you have to be really brave to swim against the tide. It was at one of those much publicised Mod/Rocker riots in Brighton, in 1964, that my parka got stolen. I needed something to keep me warm for the return trip to London. There was a shop come stall selling leather garments, in all shapes and sizes. He wanted five pounds for this somewhat shabby sheepskin/leather. It was about the cheapest thing he had. Just to put it into perspective, a family of four could fill their supermarket trolley back then for about four quid. I told the shopkeeper about my parka being stolen and that I only had thirty bob (£1:50) left on me. "Go on Son," he said with a warm smile, "the A2 is yours for thirty bob." Hand on heart, that was the first time that I had ever heard the term A2, and it wasn't until decades later that I realised exactly what it was that I had bought, seriously. I mean, you are looking at someone who didn't even know, back then, that there was an MG TA, TB, TC and TD. I had heard the term TC and assumed that all the models were TC's. I thought it meant Twin Carbs or Twin Cam. This is turning into a mea culpa.
It will be interesting to see what take others have on the subject.

 

[theundeadkennedy]

My dream jacket would be a Rainbow Country G-1. They stopped producing it a few years back however.

My dream car is an Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato.

Dream bike, I'm gonna go with a 1973 Norton Commando. I had a '72 some years back, but had to let it go.

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[handymike]

I really wish Dodge had made this concept car, or this pick-up

 

[ton312]

View attachment 50369 I really wish Dodge had made this concept car, or this pick-up
View attachment 50370

Those are both so damn cool...Is the car a charger or challenger? Makes a 'vette look weak. I'd throw this guy into the same category of 60's/70's awesomeness.

 

[Monitor]

That Dodge is SO nice!

I wish car design went in this direction. Cars could hardly be any more boring than they are today...

 

[handymike]

I'm soooo with you guys!
If only 1/2 of my Hot Wheels were real cars.

 

[tropicalbob]

I wish cars today would come with blondes and brunettes.

 

[Monitor]

I wish cars today would come with blondes and brunettes.

Some pretty much do.

 

[GHT]

I wish cars today would come with blondes and brunettes.

I would settle for blue, if it was as blue and beautiful as BoaterHat's 1939 Buick in the: "Show Us Your Vehicles," thread.