Thanks for all the replies everyone - I am pleasantly surprised by the response. I am surprised how many of you recommend the CXL Steer. I owned a CXL steer Highwayman briefly, and it was beautiful, but I remember it being super thick and heavy. Do you guys feel like the Steer ages more gracefully and creases in a softer more natural way than the horse, or does it just break in faster? I'll admit there is a mystique to horsehide - it feels special since it's rare, and I believe it increases the resale value. I hate the think this way, but I've had to let go of a lot of jackets over the years - I am hoping this one will be a keeper - it's taken me this long to figure out my fit and overall preferences.
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CXL Horsehide VS. Vicenza
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LeFonque
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For most of my adult life I have ridden a motorcycle and worn heavyweight leather steer and hh. I find wearing vinceza an absolute delight.
Bigbenbs
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I have an Aero Daytona in CXL FQHH and a Hooch Hauler in Vicenza. Both are relatively new, but are getting heavy wear and exposure to the elements.
À few observations:
1) It is somewhat difficult to know which differences to attribute to the model which to attribute to the leather. The Daytona, for example, has a lot more going on in the gut area, and also feels much stiffer there. It's not clear to me how much of that is the d pocket etc.
2) the weight of the two jackets is not significantly different, though the CXL Daytona clearly has the edge.
3) the Vicenza was much more comfortable from day 1. The CXL was more stiff. But the CXL was not so stiff as to be unwearable. It also looked good worn in public from day 1.
4) the Vicenza soaks up water while it beads off the CXL. Vicenza dries and looks quite beautiful afterward, no water spots or anything, but it wears very differently in the rain.
5) I know this is somewhat unsubstantiated, as I haven't had the jackets long enough, but I have the feeling that the CXL will become more "buttery" over time while the Vicenza will feel more or less the same. This is based on the observation that, while my Vicenza coat has gotten daily wear for the last months, it feels closer to what it originally felt like than my CXL sleeves feel like after a week. So my intuition is that, in the long haul, the CXL will be the softer jacket, while the Vicenza will look fresher.
6) both leathers are great and I think that both work well on the same models, though they do give the jacket a slightly different aesthetic. I would say that, based in my limited experience, the CXL has a kind of fullness and voluptuousness, while the Vicenza has a finer and somehow more fibrous look, though also still quite luminous. So from day 1 the Vicenza is more interesting looking, I'd say. Or that's at least how my jackets look. Can't speak yet about how they age.
7) I want a cxl steer and a goat jacket too.
À few observations:
1) It is somewhat difficult to know which differences to attribute to the model which to attribute to the leather. The Daytona, for example, has a lot more going on in the gut area, and also feels much stiffer there. It's not clear to me how much of that is the d pocket etc.
2) the weight of the two jackets is not significantly different, though the CXL Daytona clearly has the edge.
3) the Vicenza was much more comfortable from day 1. The CXL was more stiff. But the CXL was not so stiff as to be unwearable. It also looked good worn in public from day 1.
4) the Vicenza soaks up water while it beads off the CXL. Vicenza dries and looks quite beautiful afterward, no water spots or anything, but it wears very differently in the rain.
5) I know this is somewhat unsubstantiated, as I haven't had the jackets long enough, but I have the feeling that the CXL will become more "buttery" over time while the Vicenza will feel more or less the same. This is based on the observation that, while my Vicenza coat has gotten daily wear for the last months, it feels closer to what it originally felt like than my CXL sleeves feel like after a week. So my intuition is that, in the long haul, the CXL will be the softer jacket, while the Vicenza will look fresher.
6) both leathers are great and I think that both work well on the same models, though they do give the jacket a slightly different aesthetic. I would say that, based in my limited experience, the CXL has a kind of fullness and voluptuousness, while the Vicenza has a finer and somehow more fibrous look, though also still quite luminous. So from day 1 the Vicenza is more interesting looking, I'd say. Or that's at least how my jackets look. Can't speak yet about how they age.
7) I want a cxl steer and a goat jacket too.
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ProteinNerd
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Its really going to come down to preferences. Both are fantastic quality yet quite different. Personally after owning a number of Vicenza, CXL HH and CXL Steer (along wth Shinki) jackets my preferences are Shinki, Vicenza and CXL Steer...I'd place CXL HH last.
Keep in mind I'm in a warmer, often humid climate and don't get a huge amount of wear outside of winter so mid weight leathers are just more practical here than the super heavy stuff. If I did go for a heavy leather, I'd go for Steer over Horse, I think it just breaks in a bit quicker and much nicer, the Brown CXL Steer is crazy nice and once broken in, I think looks better than all the other options but mid weight is just better for my climate.
Its a tough choice to choose between them but thats why most of us have more than 1 jacket....different characteristics from the different leathers.
Keep in mind I'm in a warmer, often humid climate and don't get a huge amount of wear outside of winter so mid weight leathers are just more practical here than the super heavy stuff. If I did go for a heavy leather, I'd go for Steer over Horse, I think it just breaks in a bit quicker and much nicer, the Brown CXL Steer is crazy nice and once broken in, I think looks better than all the other options but mid weight is just better for my climate.
Its a tough choice to choose between them but thats why most of us have more than 1 jacket....different characteristics from the different leathers.
IMO the basic question is this:
Do you want a jacket that shows aging as you wear it, or a jacket that shows minimal aging as you wear it?
To me this is the main difference.
The difference in thickness is almost negligible, yes Vic is somewhat lighter, but at equivalent size a vic jacket is only going to be around 300gr (0.6lb) lighter. Not a huge difference considering what each of us sees as light or heavy varies a lot.
Yes the CXL will be more rigid when new, but after a couple months wear both will feel similar.
What really separates them is how they age.
Vic is basically a painted on leather, the top coat is tough and won't really change unless you scratch it, once scratched nothing will fix it other than paint.
CXL is a waxy leather, the top coat is basically coloured waxes. As you wear it the top coat will rub off and create colour variations, it scratches easily but you can usually "heal" it by rubbing the scratch with your thumb.
(a side effect of this is that CXL is much more waterproof, it has a very high wax content)
A CXL jacket might need a bit more work in the beginning, but IMO the more you wear it the better it looks.
A Vic jacket to me looks as good as it is going to get when new, they don't really evolve in a positive way.
This is the point that should guide your decision between CXL and Vic.
Once you know which finish you want then decide if you want to go standard tough (FQHH) or super tough (Steer).
IMO both CXL FQHH and Steer will age similarly, the main difference is thickness.
Some people will say steer and horse have a different grain, i am not sure i agree, neither does the storse debacle.
The pictures posted in the following thread illustrate my point very well, you can do what you want with Vicenza it is never going to look like this:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-highwayman-ten-years-old.95329/
Aged Vic to me just looks like a crumpled up version of the new jacket:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aged-vicenza-leather.93338/
Do you want a jacket that shows aging as you wear it, or a jacket that shows minimal aging as you wear it?
To me this is the main difference.
The difference in thickness is almost negligible, yes Vic is somewhat lighter, but at equivalent size a vic jacket is only going to be around 300gr (0.6lb) lighter. Not a huge difference considering what each of us sees as light or heavy varies a lot.
Yes the CXL will be more rigid when new, but after a couple months wear both will feel similar.
What really separates them is how they age.
Vic is basically a painted on leather, the top coat is tough and won't really change unless you scratch it, once scratched nothing will fix it other than paint.
CXL is a waxy leather, the top coat is basically coloured waxes. As you wear it the top coat will rub off and create colour variations, it scratches easily but you can usually "heal" it by rubbing the scratch with your thumb.
(a side effect of this is that CXL is much more waterproof, it has a very high wax content)
A CXL jacket might need a bit more work in the beginning, but IMO the more you wear it the better it looks.
A Vic jacket to me looks as good as it is going to get when new, they don't really evolve in a positive way.
This is the point that should guide your decision between CXL and Vic.
Once you know which finish you want then decide if you want to go standard tough (FQHH) or super tough (Steer).
IMO both CXL FQHH and Steer will age similarly, the main difference is thickness.
Some people will say steer and horse have a different grain, i am not sure i agree, neither does the storse debacle.
The pictures posted in the following thread illustrate my point very well, you can do what you want with Vicenza it is never going to look like this:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-highwayman-ten-years-old.95329/
Aged Vic to me just looks like a crumpled up version of the new jacket:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aged-vicenza-leather.93338/
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Edward
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Quite. When I handled a Vicenza jacket (and tried one on) at the factory, what surprised me was just how little difference there really is between it and the CXL. I like both equally, though agreeing with what Carlossays, I would consider the upcharge on the Vicenza for two reasons: 1] if I really wanted a blue jacket, or 2] if I wanted a jacket to stay its new colour longer without so much fade (with black jacket,s yes - brown and cordo, less so). That said, there is the black/brown vicenza too.... The V is a tiny bit more pliable from the off, though TBH as I've said many times, I'm strongly of the opinion that the weight / break in of CXL FQHH is nowhere near hat some folksseem to like to make it out to be.
TL/DR: personal choice. Try both. Buy the one you like.
TL/DR: personal choice. Try both. Buy the one you like.
This was my experience exactly. I am not opposed to wearing heavy jackets, but the Vicenza was so easy to move in.
Good points - I do get the impression that with Vicenza what you see is what you get and it doesn't change much in appearance. I am surprised there isn't more of a difference in weight. Maybe it's just that I'm not wearing a jacket that is cut two sizes too big anymore.
Thanks Edward. I would kill to go to the factory just to be fitted in person. Vicenza seems to be an instant gratification leather (and I'm not saying that's bad). It requires almost no break in, and the color stays roughly the same for he life of the garment. For many, that would be a win. For me, I think I might enjoy one of each, which is so often the answer around here
This is a fair point. It's hard not to feel like "thickness=quality", and also the opposite. So many things these days are thinner or made from poor materials.
I am personally struggling with the cachet and mystique of horse vs the more supple hand of steer. As the latter is concerned, Vicenza is the best of both worlds - it's soft, supple horsehide. In turn, it may not be as durable, but it should be more than tough enough for the majority of us.
I have a Vanson Chopper in their classic Comp. Weight. It’s heavy. It’s thick. It’s not breaking anytime soon. It looks badass and it’s built to last forever. Having said that the jacket that gets the most wear from me is what most of us would call flimsy thin Schott 618HH. The liner is warm, it has an attachable collar for extra warmth, it’s light, it doesn’t hurt my shoulders or back if I wear it all day. So there is no right answer here. It’s really what you’re doing with it and what you want out of it. If you’re riding a bike, prone to bar fights and need a suit or armor for protection, find heavy garments and tough as nails leather attractive. There’s Lost Worlds, Vanson and some of Aeros thicker horse and steer. If you’re getting an everyday, non biker jacket. With proper care a Vicenza or Schott or Shinki will last you’re lifetime and possibly beyond with more causal everyday looks available. So there is no right or wrong. It will highly depend on lifestyle and what style jacket you’re getting.
This is absolutely up to the wearer and which characteristics they prefer...that said:
The property that CXL exhibits best is depth of color. No other leather on the planet has anywhere near the level of pull-up that CXL displays. If people can't see that they are blind. Really. Look at a brown or cordovan cxl jacket and compare it to any other leather available, you'll quickly become educated as to what pull up effect is. As carlos mentioned it is wax and oil stuffed. If this type of marbled appearance appeals to you, look no further. It is a heavy leather and for some that is a detriment (that's why God made skirts). Take it easy that was a joke...you whom are mad know who you are...
Vicenza certainly shows more immediate grain but much of the stuff I've seen lately looks printed and low res to boot. It is quite a bit lighter in my experience. My brief encounter with a size 42" 30's HB, weight-4.5lbs (that's around half my cxl equivalent). It is certainly far easier to wear, requires absolutely zero break-in and is super comfortable out of the box. The color is flat and uniform and there is zero pull-up. It's certainly not a weak leather but for me it's just a bit too flat in color to be very interesting (except for the olive and navy blue, I really like those).
When worn CXL feels like a jacket, Vic feels like an over-shirt. The climate where you live will dictate how much wear and which hide will suit you best. Both are fine hides and each one has it's positives and negatives.
The property that CXL exhibits best is depth of color. No other leather on the planet has anywhere near the level of pull-up that CXL displays. If people can't see that they are blind. Really. Look at a brown or cordovan cxl jacket and compare it to any other leather available, you'll quickly become educated as to what pull up effect is. As carlos mentioned it is wax and oil stuffed. If this type of marbled appearance appeals to you, look no further. It is a heavy leather and for some that is a detriment (that's why God made skirts). Take it easy that was a joke...you whom are mad know who you are...
Vicenza certainly shows more immediate grain but much of the stuff I've seen lately looks printed and low res to boot. It is quite a bit lighter in my experience. My brief encounter with a size 42" 30's HB, weight-4.5lbs (that's around half my cxl equivalent). It is certainly far easier to wear, requires absolutely zero break-in and is super comfortable out of the box. The color is flat and uniform and there is zero pull-up. It's certainly not a weak leather but for me it's just a bit too flat in color to be very interesting (except for the olive and navy blue, I really like those).
When worn CXL feels like a jacket, Vic feels like an over-shirt. The climate where you live will dictate how much wear and which hide will suit you best. Both are fine hides and each one has it's positives and negatives.
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Very true...nothing is more disappointing to me than a lightweight leather jacket. Same with something overly soft...I just don't like the way they feel.
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I'm tellin' you people, if CX is too heavy for you, give Jerky HH a try. I'm sure anyone who's ever had a jacket in it will agree. It's 10x nicer than Vicenza. It's plenty heavy, tough wearing hide with a completely natural texture and grain.
This is a great suggestion...I wish we'd see more of the jerky HH. It looks like what Vic wants to be but isn't.I'm tellin' you people, if CX is too heavy for you, give Jerky HH a try. I'm sure anyone who's ever had a jacket in it will agree. It's 10x nicer than Vicenza. It's plenty heavy, tough wearing hide with a completely natural texture and grain.
LOL...if his friend "has been down a couple times" perhaps he should consider other means of transportation. This photo is not a good endorsement for the hide as protective gear. At all.I don't think we'll ever get rid of the heavier and thicker equals better in this forum.
Half the people who go for that don't ride a motorcycle and even then the leathers used for riding in motorcycle competitions aren't even close in thickness or weight to what people believe is needed for riding.
For the most part they're made of cowhide or Kangaroo and quoting Alpinestars makers for the Moto GP suits:
About the weight:
Source of the interview: HERE
People like heavy leathers and thick leathers, I don't have a problem with that although it's not my preference. What I don't like is reading all the time about how other leathers are not as great because they won't protect you, blablabla because only the heaviest of the heaviest will because that's basically not true.
I've seen even a Himel jacket online that had been on a motorcycle accident and the shinki leather held up pretty well for a "fashion" leather as some call it.
Even vintage leather jackets and trousers used for motorcycles and racing are lighter and thinner.
I see what you mean. LOL Here's two brown jackets that basically say it all...but probably don't align well with your assessment...
I like both Vicenza and CXL, but I think I would actually prefer to use goatskin for a cafe racer type of jacket. Aero's goat is beautiful and underrated around here. However its not very heavy, so if one is looking for a heavy comfort blanket/jacket it would not be the number one choice. Its durability and wearability on other hand are top notch!
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Not exactly true.
Most pro riding leather gear, full racing suits and so on, is actually a lot thicker and heavier than anything that the makers we talk about here are using nowadays. Especially older stuff by European makers. For example, German made pro-racing jackets and suits are literally twice the thickness of a standard Vanson comp. weight leather. I've recently tried on an old Fieldsheer pro-racing suit, man, that thing's made out of belt grade leather. Or an old Belstaff! Hard to believe nowadays but I've had a pair of 70's Belstaff racing trousers that were made from literally 6-7 oz leather. If not more. I regret to this day that I haven't kept them. Idiotically heavy leather albeit super soft and comfortable.
Proper racing gear is serious stuff and it's always, always, extremely heavy. And for a reason.
dudewuttheheck
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I much prefer the grain on the Vicenza. The pictures are taken in very different lighting so it's tough to compare the color depth. Aging cannot be called from those photos obviously.I see what you mean. LOL Here's two brown jackets that basically say it all...but probably don't align well with your assessment...
If I'm being honest, Vicenza doesn't excite me as far as veg tanned leathers go. You make a good point that Vicenza does not show the great advantages over chrome tanned leather that it should, but other vegetable tanned leathers do. I think just about every other veg tanned horsehide I've seen looks nicer. Shinki, what Eastman uses, what Fine Creek is using, even Badalssi cowhide. I found out that Aero has some Badalassi now. If I were to buy an Aero, that would be the leather I would buy.
Another solid option - I was just settling on CXL Horse, and now I am reminded of this. Do you know if the "Jerky" HH is Chromexcel, or some other type? Is the color as rich as CXL, or more even like Vicenza?
That cross zip (bootlegger?) is stunning - is that Horse or Steer? It looks like it's wearing in beautifully.
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