current dress trends

[Gin&Tonics]

I'm about six feet tall, and my weight fluctuates between 120 and 125, and supposedly my ideal range is 140-185. Doc thinks my thyroid is over active, but I always call bs when everyone blames their weight issues on the thyroid rather than just being lazy, so I figure I'll just eat more and work out more. The whole world can't have thyroid problems.

Hmm. That's quite low. I'm 6'2" and I weigh 200lbs, give or take. I've gained a little weight over the winter months from being excessively sedentary because I frankly couldn't bring myself to spend much time outside in the horrendous miserable weather we've had, so I'm probably 10-15 lbs overweight. Do you eat 3 normal meals a day? If you do, you might want to consult a nutritionist, and failing that maybe get a second physician's opinion, because that does sound like a signifcant weight deficit. Definitely go easy on the exercise at first and focus more on the diet, because if you're underweight by that much you can harm yourself if you overdo it on exercise.

I definitely wouldn't just let things stand. Hope you can get it all sorted out!

 

[Pompidou]

The most recent comments in this thread from men (Pompidou, Flat Foot Flooey, and Rudie) don't say anything about being too large and not being able to fit into clothing. Pompidou indicated that he can't keep weight on. From Flat Foot Flooey and Rudie's comments there is no indication that they are large men. They just have the typical issues that OTR doesn't fit. Maybe the neck is good, but the sleeves aren't right. Or the torso of a shirt billows out far too much. How will losing weight help in this case? I am 6 feet tall and 150 pounds. My biggest problem is shirts that have way to much material in the torso. You say men don't talk about gaining or losing weight to fit into clothing. Well, losing weight won't help in my case. As for gaining weight, why on earth would i grow my stomach in order to fill out an OTR shirt?

For both men and women who are larger, they might feel that it is because of their size that a garment does not fit properly. However, improper fit with OTR clothing happens to everyone. So this means either you try on lots of clothing before making a purchase or you take your OTR item to a tailor or seamstress (or fix it yourself if you can).

This is about the same in my case. I recognize three problems fitting shirts and jackets. My sleeves might not be long enough. My shoulders/neck might not be narrow enough. My torso will either be way too small or way too wide. I can correct any two in most cases. I typically settle for bagginess to allow the right length sleeves and torso.

 

[Flicka]

I'm a size 8, and I used to be a size 4. My experience is that I no longer fit the ideal. Naturally, I can find size 8 in the clothing stores, but every mannequin, magazine and dress I try on remind me that according to the fashion industry, I'm a fatso. At size 8. I can't imagine how size 14 women must feel.

With all due respect, I think it would be nice if you gentlemen did not try to tell us ladies that we don't know what we're talking about. I know this is not how you mean it, but it does come across as a bunch of guys telling a bunch of gals that the male experience is the norm and that our experiences aren't valid. I really cannot fathom where your need to 'correct' us ladies come from, Noirblack, but it does come across as awfully condescending.

 

[crispinross]

To be simple, if a person has a great or a fit body and wears the clothes as that of suits regarding his body measurements, then he will be having a perfect outfit, whenever he will put them on. There will be no hanging of pants, above or beneath the waistline, or no oversizing of shirts. Problem solved, no debates further.

 

[Drappa]

I'm a size 8, and I used to be a size 4. My experience is that I no longer fit the ideal. Naturally, I can find size 8 in the clothing stores, but every mannequin, magazine and dress I try on remind me that according to the fashion industry, I'm a fatso. At size 8. I can't imagine how size 14 women must feel.

With all due respect, I think it would be nice if you gentlemen did not try to tell us ladies that we don't know what we're talking about. I know this is not how you mean it, but it does come across as a bunch of guys telling a bunch of gals that the male experience is the norm and that our experiences aren't valid. I really cannot fathom where your need to 'correct' us ladies come from, Noirblack, but it does come across as awfully condescending.

Thank you for this! Of course people (men included) sometimes assume that their own experience and feeling is the one and only truth, but this is where common sense and compassion should kick in. The only people who know how mainstream fashion makes them feel and fits them are the affected women themselves.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Precisely. And continuing to beat that particular horse when one has been told not to is a sure path to the sidewalk.

 

[Noirblack]

I'm a size 8, and I used to be a size 4. My experience is that I no longer fit the ideal. Naturally, I can find size 8 in the clothing stores, but every mannequin, magazine and dress I try on remind me that according to the fashion industry, I'm a fatso. At size 8. I can't imagine how size 14 women must feel.

With all due respect, I think it would be nice if you gentlemen did not try to tell us ladies that we don't know what we're talking about. I know this is not how you mean it, but it does come across as a bunch of guys telling a bunch of gals that the male experience is the norm and that our experiences aren't valid. I really cannot fathom where your need to 'correct' us ladies come from, Noirblack, but it does come across as awfully condescending.

My point is that the fit for any OTR clothing, for people of any size and any sex is always a challenge. By pointing this out, I am saying that the male experience is the norm, in the sense that everyone has challenges in finding a garment with a good fit. I am saying there is nothing unique to the female experience of difficulty getting a fit. That is very different from saying your experiences aren't valid.

You indicate that when you see a mannequin, magazine, or dress you are reminded that you are a fatso. Well, mannequins in menswear stores are tall and slim. The models in GQ, for example, are thin and tall. (Imagine being a man who's 5 foot 4 in this day and age and think how inadequate that would make you feel). The use of thin mannequins and models will also make men feel like fatsos.

 

[Angus Forbes]

Seems to me that most of the men's suits that I like are tailored for tall, thin Anglo-Saxon or northern-Italian physiques. Although I admire such people greatly, I'm not all that tall (5-11) and thin (not saying). If I stuff myself into one of these suits, even if it is properly altered, I look more like Joe Palooka or somebody's has-been bodyguard than like a gentleman. On the other hand, I have good results with Harris Tweed jackets, chinos, oxford button downs, Shetland sweaters, and the like. LL Bean makes good stuff for people like me . . .

 

[Undertow]

It's not news that unrealistic expecations are placed on women to look "right".
Fashion industry has forced unrealistic image on women, says leading designer
Size 4 model: I was fired for being too fat
Kelly Clarkson Photo Retouched to Make Her 'Look Her Best' [note the difference in Clarkson's facial structure - she's gone from square to triangle, particularly at the jaw...]
These articles are to highligh but a few.

And psychologists have tested how expectations seem to control our own reactions:
How Other People’s Unspoken Expectations Control Us

And although I'm sure there is a little pressure on men to look better, I think men's expectations are more about personality than physical features. Obviously, you don't see attractive men walking around a boxing ring holding cards; or an MMA ring, or a NASCAR track, or a football field, etc. Those men, the athletes, are expected to be physically fit, but it's not surprising when the fat guy hits a homerun, or knocks someone out, or races the fastest. No, men are expected to be tough as nails in personality. That's equally as unrealistic, but an apple to an orange.

Now whereas women have trouble finding clothes that fit properly, and thus end up starving themselves madly to fit, it would seem many men have embraced this "fitting" problem. Consider how prevelant baggy shirts and jeans are in the male population, even on men who can find clothes that fit. Consider how often you see men chowing down at dinner, eating off everyone else's plates, only to pop open the bottom buttons without much ceremony.

No, trying to claim the 'image' issue is an equal problem is just stirring a pot. Certainly, men have issues finding clothes that fit, but it simply does not affect men's self-esteem in the same way - it was never designed to. I'm speaking in generalities, by the by - because yes, I'm sure someone, somewhere can produce a young man with anorexia.

And regarding BMI, it's a joke; it's snake oil; it's scientific mumbo-jumbo put together by some Marketing whiz kids to make "weight problems" a marketable statistic. The business world loves nothing more than black-and-white numbers which they can use to create a problem, and just as readily provide a solution. BMI is like IQ - it tests some particular aspect of a person and then tries to make assumptions about the meaning of the number. I'm 6'3" 280 and I wear a 50L jacket. I also bench 250lbs, curl 55lbs dumbbells and I can leg-press 880lbs. Guess what my BMI is? 35 - obese, death's doorstep, might as well start throwing up now. Same goes for IQ - the entire test originated as a racist, mysoginistic attempt to put white American men on a pedestal.

 

[LizzieMaine]

University researchers aren't blameless in promuigating the Cult Of Skinny.

Note the industry definition of "plus size models" -- it starts at size six. Although it varies according to manufacturer, the average modern size six has a 34 inch bust, a 26 inch waist, and 37 inch hips.

"Plus size." "Chubby."

Are you angry yet? If you aren't, you need to rethink a whole lot more than just your fashion sense.

 

[sheeplady]

Although it varies according to manufacturer, the average modern size six has a 34 inch bust, a 26 inch waist, and 37 inch hips.

I think I've found one manufacturer who uses those measurements for a size 6. For most manufacturers, that is a size 2. For some, those measurements match a size 0. And those "measurement guidelines" they give in their inserts or on their websites for each size? Those are from 10 years ago, and if you order by the measurements, you'll end up with a garment much too large.

The inflation of the sizes is indicative of several deep cultural problems, one of which is that our society has valued thinness so much that they'll push down the number of the sizing.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

What I hate is being in between sizes where one size won't fit but the very next size up is too big.

 

[Noirblack]

No, trying to claim the 'image' issue is an equal problem is just stirring a pot. Certainly, men have issues finding clothes that fit, but it simply does not affect men's self-esteem in the same way - it was never designed to. I'm speaking in generalities, by the by - because yes, I'm sure someone, somewhere can produce a young man with anorexia.

By pointing out that the fit of clothing is an issue for everyone, I am not trying to stir the pot. What I am responding to is a sense that I get that some women (and some men) feel bad about not being able to get clothing that fits OTR. For females, if they are not a perfect size whatever, they do not need to feel that clothes don't fit them because they are too large. If they lost weight, they would very likely still have fit issues. I think it is important to not feel bad about yourself because you have difficulties finding properly fitting clothing. If the first item (or the first 10 items) don't fit, welcome to shopping for clothes. You have to try on lots of things to find even one item you like.

All the information about skinny models is not news. It comes up every few years. But by the same token, take a look at male models. They aren't your averag male. You don't see any big bellies modelling the latest swimwear.

I could slice it a different way and say that nearly all the models are young. So it's really an ageist agenda at work here. So they are out to get me because I'm over age 23 now. Or I could say that a count of the worlds models shows that most of them are caucasian, so it is racism at work here.

I just think that if there is something that is making people feel bad about themselves (such as the fit of clothing), maybe by gibing them a fuller picture of how that affects practically everybody they can start not to feel so bad about themselves.

 

[Drappa]

I just think that if there is something that is making people feel bad about themselves (such as the fit of clothing), maybe by gibing them a fuller picture of how that affects practically everybody they can start not to feel so bad about themselves.

No, you are not giving anyone a tool to not feel bad about themselves. What you are doing is completely discrediting a lot of womens' experiences, despite a few telling you that you got us all wrong, as well as ignoring at least three generations of feminist researchers who have clearly laid out the different pressures for women and men in regards to body image. Somehow you insist on jumbling everything together, in particular things that have nothing to do with each other. I bet if we were talking about domestic violence experiences of women in, say New York, you'd be the one arguing on every page that it's not a gender specific problem because men in London experience domestic violence also. The two are not mutually exclusive, but at the same time not identical either. All this does is devalue a group's very specific problem by claiming that others have this problem too. It is silly one-upmanship and serves no purpose other than wanting to argue about who has it worse. The fact is, it's a big old world with more than enough space for different problems and different experiences.
Lastly, you are right, the fashion world also suffers severly from both racism and ageism as well, but that is not what we're discussing.

 

[Noirblack]

No, you are not giving anyone a tool to not feel bad about themselves. What you are doing is completely discrediting a lot of womens' experiences, despite a few telling you that you got us all wrong, as well as ignoring at least three generations of feminist researchers who have clearly laid out the different pressures for women and men in regards to body image. Somehow you insist on jumbling everything together, in particular things that have nothing to do with each other. I bet if we were talking about domestic violence experiences of women in, say New York, you'd be the one arguing on every page that it's not a gender specific problem because men in London experience domestic violence also. The two are not mutually exclusive, but at the same time not identical either. All this does is devalue a group's very specific problem by claiming that others have this problem too. It is silly one-upmanship and serves no purpose other than wanting to argue about who has it worse. The fact is, it's a big old world with more than enough space for different problems and different experiences.
Lastly, you are right, the fashion world also suffers severly from both racism and ageism as well, but that is not what we're discussing.

I never said that women are getting it all wrong. I just think it might be helpful to look at the issue from all perspectives and to see what we can learn from that. The more perspectives you have, the more likely that the problem will be solved. Do you not wish to solve the problem?

 

[Noirblack]

I never said that women are getting it all wrong. I just think it might be helpful to look at the issue from all perspectives and to see what we can learn from that. The more perspectives you have, the more likely that the problem will be solved. Do you not wish to solve the problem?

I have to add that I am amazed that in responding to some specific comments from women posting on this thread about fit, and attempting to be reassuring, I get such push back. What's that old saying "no good deed goes unpunished"?

 

[Drappa]

I never said that women are getting it all wrong. I just think it might be helpful to look at the issue from all perspectives and to see what we can learn from that. The more perspectives you have, the more likely that the problem will be solved. Do you not wish to solve the problem?

Yes, in fact I do. Preferably I'd like to solve it with others who can emphatise, not those who minimise or lecture. The first step to this solution would be getting rid of constant male condescension and people like yourself telling me or other women which "perspectives" we should consider, how we should think, what we should solve, or any other *should* you can think of. And with this I also will stop responding to you.
ETA: Whilst contemplation the amazing pushback, let me help you find a solution to your problem - rethink your approach and tone.

 

[Noirblack]

Yes, in fact I do. Preferably I'd like to solve it with others who can emphatise, not those who minimise or lecture. The first step to this solution would be getting rid of constant male condescension and people like yourself telling me or other women which "perspectives" we should consider, how we should think, what we should solve, or any other *should* you can think of. And with this I also will stop responding to you.
ETA: Whilst contemplation the amazing pushback, let me help you find a solution to your problem - rethink your approach and tone.

As I indicated in an earlier post it is because I don't like people feeling bad about themselves that I offered my comments. That is empathy in my books.

 

[Flicka]

As I indicated in an earlier post it is because I don't like people feeling bad about themselves that I offered my comments. That is empathy in my books.

Let me repeat myself: "but you come across as awfully condescending."

 

[Gingerella72]

Correct. Because the majority of people are overweight (according to data..)doesn't mean advertising is not skewed or sending unattainable messages to the consumer.
You can certainly buy large size clothing but that is of little consequence when the average American size range is considered "plus", an afterthought, and barely warrants one rack on your local retail outlets.

This is spot on. As a plus size wearing gal, I can attest to the fact that most stores like JC Penney and Kohls have pathetic excuses for plus size departments. No variety, no style, and most everything is designed to fit like a mumu. I would love for stores to outfit their plus size departments with the exact same styles the "normal weight departments" have, just in the equivalent larger sizes. It boggles my mind that the majority of their shoppers are probably plus size, yet they shove the plus size section into the back of the store lest it taint the Thin Woman's Domain.

As for being overweight, I don't try and delude myself that the reason for my fatness is because it's genetic, because of a medical problem, or because I'm just being too hard on myself with the "pressure to be thin." I am fat because of my own stupid choices in food, drink and lack of exercise. I want to lose weight because I hate looking and feeling this way, and yes, because I hate the fact that I can't buy the clothes I want to wear. I don't want to look like an anorexic model....I just want to fit in a decent size 12.