Cultural Appropriation

[Lincsong]

Food for thought

Then there's the scenario where someone would have to ask; "would a Ramon Estevez get the same acting roles as a Martin Sheen?" Since the name "Ramon Estvez" sounds and looks like it belongs on the face of Anthony Quinn and the name "Anthony Quinn" seems to fit better on the face of Ramon Estevez.

So did Martin Sheen or Anthony Quinn play any roles that would be offensive under the mantra of cultural appropriation?

 

[Doh!]

This is kind of a slippery slope argument. Just because we don't know where to draw the line, let's chuck the whole idea and just go back to blackface for african american roles.

It's been done with Sir Larry's portrayal of Othello:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0059555/

I know he's a terrific actor and all, but I just can't get past the make-up.

 

[carebear]

It's been done with Sir Larry's portrayal of Othello:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0059555/

I know he's a terrific actor and all, but I just can't get past the make-up.

So in that case it would interfere with the story itself and perhaps an actor better suited to the role (since race was key to the character's identity) should have been cast.

 

[reetpleat]

Then there's the scenario where someone would have to ask; "would a Ramon Estevez get the same acting roles as a Martin Sheen?" Since the name "Ramon Estvez" sounds and looks like it belongs on the face of Anthony Quinn and the name "Anthony Quinn" seems to fit better on the face of Ramon Estevez.

So did Martin Sheen or Anthony Quinn play any roles that would be offensive under the mantra of cultural appropriation?

Well that is just the point. I don't care so much about weather the story has integrity, I am more concerned about prejudice and exclusion. Martin Sheen had to change his name jsut to get roles. Thankfully, his son did not have to, although perhaps Charlie Sheen felt he had to. I can't say.

I am sure ANthony Quinn played roles that would be offensive to other ethnic groups who were nt able to get the roles. The whole hollywood system of classifying actors as Ethnic, and using them for whatever Ethnic parts they have is weird and silly, and while it makes money, is bad and adds to lack of respect and understasnding of various cultures and I beileve, hurts us by allowing us to be less sensitive and aware of other cultures and peoples.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

It's been done with Sir Larry's portrayal of Othello:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0059555/

I know he's a terrific actor and all, but I just can't get past the make-up.

The greatest film performance of Othello ever!

(are we discussing stage or just film here, because the tradition of "blacking-up" has firm roots on the stage. Not many African actors in London in 1500)

bk

 

[LizzieMaine]

An interesting twist on "Othello" happened a few years back in Washington DC -- Patrick Stewart was cast in the title role, but he didn't do it in makeup. Instead, all the other roles were played by black actors, leaving him the only white face in the cast, and turning the whole concept of race on its ear. A very provocative approach, but one which kept the point of the play intact while giving the audience a great deal to think about. Would that be "cultural appropriation?"

 

[Lady Day]

An interesting twist on "Othello" happened a few years back in Washington DC -- Patrick Stewart was cast in the title role, but he didn't do it in makeup. Instead, all the other roles were played by black actors, leaving him the only white face in the cast, and turning the whole concept of race on its ear. A very provocative approach, but one which kept the point of the play intact while giving the audience a great deal to think about. Would that be "cultural appropriation?"

I would LOVE to have seen that! Othello is one of my favorite plays.

LD

 

[Lincsong]

Well that is just the point. I don't care so much about weather the story has integrity, I am more concerned about prejudice and exclusion. Martin Sheen had to change his name jsut to get roles. Thankfully, his son did not have to, although perhaps Charlie Sheen felt he had to. I can't say.

I am sure ANthony Quinn played roles that would be offensive to other ethnic groups who were nt able to get the roles. The whole hollywood system of classifying actors as Ethnic, and using them for whatever Ethnic parts they have is weird and silly, and while it makes money, is bad and adds to lack of respect and understasnding of various cultures and I beileve, hurts us by allowing us to be less sensitive and aware of other cultures and peoples.

Many actors changed their names for stage/screen personality, not so much as to get roles. Martin Sheen could have gotten a role regardless of choosing as a name Sheen or Estevez, he doesn't look ethnic. Anthony Quinn is ethnic looking yet he got roles despite Hollywood looking down on him.

Lucy and Desi had trouble getting their show on television because the networks didn't think a mixed American and Latin marriage would be accepted. Yet the show is playing somewhere in the world a couple times each day 57 years later. If the show was "culturally appropriated" it probably wouldn't have been so sucessful.

 

[Lincsong]

An interesting twist on "Othello" happened a few years back in Washington DC -- Patrick Stewart was cast in the title role, but he didn't do it in makeup. Instead, all the other roles were played by black actors, leaving him the only white face in the cast, and turning the whole concept of race on its ear. A very provocative approach, but one which kept the point of the play intact while giving the audience a great deal to think about. Would that be "cultural appropriation?"

This would have been an interesting play to see. Maybe the original was "culturally appropriated" because it was doen by an Englishman writing about two cultures other than his own.

 

[reetpleat]

An interesting twist on "Othello" happened a few years back in Washington DC -- Patrick Stewart was cast in the title role, but he didn't do it in makeup. Instead, all the other roles were played by black actors, leaving him the only white face in the cast, and turning the whole concept of race on its ear. A very provocative approach, but one which kept the point of the play intact while giving the audience a great deal to think about. Would that be "cultural appropriation?"

I wouldn't call it appropriation or offensive. After all, it was written by a white guy, or maybe black or jewish ccording to some historians looking to make waves.
But it is odd. I can't imagine tha working for me. I guess you could argue that it is supposed to make white people feel what it is like to be discriminated againt,(are white people now trying to appropriate people of color;s oppresion?) but I just don't see it. Seems kind of contrived and deliberate to me. Well, maybe some people loved it.

 

[reetpleat]

Many actors changed their names for stage/screen personality, not so much as to get roles. Martin Sheen could have gotten a role regardless of choosing as a name Sheen or Estevez, he doesn't look ethnic. Anthony Quinn is ethnic looking yet he got roles despite Hollywood looking down on him.

Lucy and Desi had trouble getting their show on television because the networks didn't think a mixed American and Latin marriage would be accepted. Yet the show is playing somewhere in the world a couple times each day 57 years later. If the show was "culturally appropriated" it probably wouldn't have been so sucessful.

Make no mistake. Actors changed their names to be one of three things. Less odd and more catchy as in Archibald Leech or Marion Michael Morrison, but also to sound less ethnic or less jewish. Sounding ethnic was not a good thing in Hollywood. Actors sought ot anglicize or westernize their names to be more palatable to studios and audiences. I m not so convinced Martin Sheen would have done a well with his original name. Why do you uppose he changed it then?

As for Anthony Quinn, he got roles because he was a type, ethnic, which is why he got roles of greeks, eskimose etc. That is creepy to me, but noting against him. He should have been getting all kinds of roles as he is a great actor. Not sure if that is his original name. If so he was lucky or he would have probably had to change it.

 

[Roger]

Make no mistake. Actors changed their names to be one of three things.
As for Anthony Quinn, he got roles because he was a type, ethnic, which is why he got roles of greeks, eskimose etc. That is creepy to me, but noting against him. He should have been getting all kinds of roles as he is a great actor. Not sure if that is his original name. If so he was lucky or he would have probably had to change it.

Anthony Quinn's paternal grandfather was Irish, the other three grandparents were Mexican mestizo mixed. In Shoes of the Fisherman he played an Eastern European priest who became Pope. That's a far cry of a Mexican playing a Slavic.

In the 1940's there were many ethnic looking and ethnic sounding actors; Fernando Lamas had an exotic sounding ethnic name and look. So did Ricardo Montalban and let's not forget the king of 20's Hollywood, Rudolph Valentino. I don't see your point, there's nothing wrong with these actors playing a variety of roles.

Of course Mortimore Horowitz and Larry Fineberg probably wouldn't have attracted as many audiences as Moe Howard and Larry Fine, but Mel Brooks seemed to have done a good job. Except; Robin Hood Men in Tights, ugh! :eusa_doh:

 

[Doh!]

The greatest film performance of Othello ever!

(are we discussing stage or just film here, because the tradition of "blacking-up" has firm roots on the stage. Not many African actors in London in 1500)

bk

Film in this specific instance. In 1960, there were certainly black actors available to play the lead. I don't know who would've had the same box office appeal but when I saw this version, I really felt Olivier's performance came across as silly (mainly due to the make up, but in addition -- as I recall it -- he was doing an odd accent).

I haven't seen this in 20+ years so my memory has perhaps been distorted, but I would not put it on the Top 10 list of Shakespeare adaptations.

 

[Lincsong]

Make no mistake. Actors changed their names to be one of three things. Less odd and more catchy as in Archibald Leech or Marion Michael Morrison, but also to sound less ethnic or less jewish. Sounding ethnic was not a good thing in Hollywood. Actors sought ot anglicize or westernize their names to be more palatable to studios and audiences. I m not so convinced Martin Sheen would have done a well with his original name. Why do you uppose he changed it then?

According to him he took the last name Sheen to honor Bishop Fulton Sheen. I don't know where the Martin part came from.

 

[Spitfire]

Band of brothers

Isn't it so, that it took quite a lot of british actors to play fullblodied american paratroopers in Band of Brothers? The roles of Winters and sgt. Talbert among others?
I think they got it right - even the accent

 

[Smithy]

Actually Spitfire, that reminds me conversely of the chap who played Higgins in "Magnum P.I.". He was actually American but did a sterling job playing an Englishman, so much so that he received a letter from an English lord saying he was a credit to the Empire!

 

[Lincsong]

Actually Spitfire, that reminds me conversely of the chap who played Higgins in "Magnum P.I.". He was actually American but did a sterling job playing an Englishman, so much so that he received a letter from an English lord saying he was a credit to the Empire!

lol He was a native Texan, if you've seen Blazing Saddles he was the Mayor of Rock Ridge.lol

 

[reetpleat]

Anthony Quinn's paternal grandfather was Irish, the other three grandparents were Mexican mestizo mixed. In Shoes of the Fisherman he played an Eastern European priest who became Pope. That's a far cry of a Mexican playing a Slavic.

In the 1940's there were many ethnic looking and ethnic sounding actors; Fernando Lamas had an exotic sounding ethnic name and look. So did Ricardo Montalban and let's not forget the king of 20's Hollywood, Rudolph Valentino. I don't see your point, there's nothing wrong with these actors playing a variety of roles.

Of course Mortimore Horowitz and Larry Fineberg probably wouldn't have attracted as many audiences as Moe Howard and Larry Fine, but Mel Brooks seemed to have done a good job. Except; Robin Hood Men in Tights, ugh! :eusa_doh:

In the 40s there were a few Latino and other ethnic actors who got all the ethnic roles. But good luck getting case where a specific ethnicity is not required. Valentino was the same thing. He was ethnic, so he played argentinians, arabs, etc. If you brng him up, I will have to throw out the whole Latin lover thing which can be seen as steriotyping of Latinos. he is not a good example for your cause in my opinion. Sure there are always a few successfu ctors, but they tended to be typecst unless they were very white looking.


As for Mel Brooks, he was a producer. Very different thing. he only had to gain acceptance in Hollywood, not with the public.

 

[reetpleat]

According to him he took the last name Sheen to honor Bishop Fulton Sheen. I don't know where the Martin part came from.

Perhaps, but that speaks to his choice of names, not the choice to change it. I doubt that he changed it on a whim just to honor some bishop.

 

[reetpleat]

Isn't it so, that it took quite a lot of british actors to play fullblodied american paratroopers in Band of Brothers? The roles of Winters and sgt. Talbert among others?
I think they got it right - even the accent

Interestng. But I have to ask. What is a full blooded american?

Kind of an oxymoron I guess, unless someone is native american end even they came from asia.