Cross zip nation

[Hh121]

JL would present a neater appearance unzipped if the leather was stiffer.

Is bottom hem on Bates much smaller than JL?

 

[Mrfrown]

Wish I had it to compare but hem is smaller by some amount on the Bates and can be cinched even more with the belt.

 

[Will Zach]

Bates is the black one. It’s in their heavier / stiffer cowhide. You see a lot of Bates for sale in the lighter or mid weight cowhide. Apparently this leather is no longer available due to tannery changes or something.

JL is brown, in very soft drapey Horween Vermont. For what it’s worth I think the JL would present a neater appearance unzipped if the leather was stiffer. The softness encourages floppy look. It is however very comfortable…everything is a trade off

That makes sense now to me, the Bates looks awesome. How old is that jacket (decade)?

 

[Mrfrown]

That makes sense now to me, the Bates looks awesome. How old is that jacket (decade)?

I’m not sure about the decade, but here are pictures of the tag and zips for clues:

 

[Will Zach]

@handymike will know. Beautiful jacket.

 

[Rich22]

Lapels broader than the collar? Not something I'm used to seeing, but have now seen it on 3 jackets here in as many days. It creates an odd balance.

That Bates jacket looked lovely, by the way.

 

[tmitchell59]

@tmitchell59 Is this 1930s design? The bigger overlaps. Thanks for the help.

I am not sure what you are referring. These two jackets are Aviator styles from the late 30s.

40s Windward

 

[Canuck Panda]

I am not sure what you are referring. These two jackets are Aviator styles from the late 30s.

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40s Windward

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Interesting. So just like what @JMax said, there is no definitive rule to the lapel size and cross zip angle, not like suits lapel sizes from different years.

The russet brown one is a Monarch right?

Great collection!

 

[tmitchell59]

Interesting. So just like what @JMax said, there is no definitive rule to the lapel size and cross zip angle, not like suits lapel sizes from different years.

The russet brown one is a Monarch right?

Great collection!

The russet jacket above is unlabeled, goatskin.

The development of the cross zip is a worthy pursuit. I could not find one earlier than 1938 in the Sears catalog. Seems late, but consider the zipper had only been in popular use since c.1931.

There are many, many example of Cross zip jackets from the 1930s, very popular.

Has any one come out and declared the 1st Cross zip? Not D pocket, but cross zip?

 

[tmitchell59]

Two Ralphs-Pugh with big collars, c.1950

 

[Canuck Panda]

The russet jacket above is unlabeled, goatskin.

The development of the cross zip is a worthy pursuit. I could not find one earlier than 1938 in the Sears catalog. Seems late, but consider the zipper had only been in popular use since c.1931.

There are many, many example of Cross zip jackets from the 1930s, very popular.

Has any one come out and declared the 1st Cross zip? Not D pocket, but cross zip?

The very 1st cross zip... Does it have to have zipper as main closure? JK.

In theory there could have been multiple prototype versions of zippers existing before the 30s. And somehow one of the prototypes could have made its way onto a leather jacket. I am refering to the Hookless guy, Gideon Sundback.

To complicate things a bit further I also believe the first Schott Perfecto design was a combination of buttons and zipper, and not the fully zipped Beck Northeaster jacket we see all the time on the internet.
This is a very vague pic on Schott's own website. There is clearly buttons on the inside lapel and outside shell. But there is also zipper chest and D Pocket. I can't see if there is a zipper track for the main closure though. This was suppose to be back in the early 1920s, and could have used one of the first Sundback zipper prototypes. It would've been easier to make shorter zips because machines weren't developed for producing long zips yet.

I remember seeing a modified / altered leather barnstormer type coat. It could've been on the vintage herbadasher blog, but I couldn't find it anymore. It was a leather 3/4 double breasted coat that was chopped short just below the belt, and the belt seemed to be sewn onto the bottom hem. It still has the same two by 3 buttons out front, just short length now. I remember saying to myself, the guy who did this was onto something. Kinda like how the American Mackinaw coat came from the British long coats, but I don't see the resemblance between those two. I could definitely see the link between a chopped leather aviator long coat and a modern cross zip.

 

[Marc mndt]

This is a very vague pic on Schott's own website. There is clearly buttons on the inside lapel and outside shell. But there is also zipper chest and D Pocket. I can't see if there is a zipper track for the main closure though.

Better quality pic from the Schott book by Rin Tanaka

Some info on zippered jackets with W collar. From the Harley Davidson book of fashion

 

[tmitchell59]

Better quality pic from the Schott book by Rin Tanaka

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Some info on zippered jackets with W collar. From the Harley Davidson book of fashion

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Thanks, I have this book but forgot to consult it. A great resource using the dated HD catalog pages.

This jacket is from the 1929, 1931 catalogs, the first zippered jackets. This compares with the first zippered jackets in the 1931 Sears catalog. Zippers coming into mainstream clothing use.

1938 Catalog is first appearance of the cross zip style. interesting read. !938 is the same year Sears had their first "Aviator" style jacket.

There must have been small shops producing this style before 1938?

I looked in the Schott book for the first Cross zip and found the first use was around 1938 which is inline with Harley and Sears catalogs. Again the Aviator reference.

The famous Beck label has Flying Togs, another reference to Aviation.

 

[tmitchell59]

Very cool Ralphs-Pugh. This label was not used until 1938. This jacket is Steerhide. Not Mine, but whish it were.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Better quality pic from the Schott book by Rin Tanaka

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Some info on zippered jackets with W collar. From the Harley Davidson book of fashion

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Super interesting! The overlap is on the women's side? Was this image mirrored? Thanks for sharing!

 

[photo2u]

Interesting comparison and thoughts. I have no comment on the time-period stuff.

When you say wear casually, you mean unzipped?

Aside from lapels, another big consideration for wearing crosszip unzipped is how "bell shaped" the jacket is. I find longer crosszip needs more bell shape and leads to a sloppier look, though maybe its just something inherent in different designs.

Extremes for demonstration- my dearly departed Bates vs JL :

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Love the snaps at the bottom hem. I think that makers can put a smaller rivet or eyelet on the male side of the zipper, it will prolong the zipper's life. The best scenario would be a snap that will perform a dual function in holding down the zipper's tape and snapping to the corresponding male snap part.

 

[photo2u]

I am not sure what you are referring. These two jackets are Aviator styles from the late 30s.

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40s Windward

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That is a beauty Terry!

 

[photo2u]

What I found out last night. You may already know this but this is new to me, so bear with me:

The more "overlap" there is in the front, the more "pouch" there is once the jacket is closed up. More overlap also meant more comfort at the neck for me. However, the big overlap cross zip also meant bigger lapels and less room on the side for chest pocket. Making the pattern a little harder to wear casually. I still do it and enjoy it, but I think it's an acquired taste. The two jackets that are cut like this is the Lewis and the Regius test jacket.

@tmitchell59 Is this 1930s design? The bigger overlaps. Thanks for the help.

The middle of the road "overlap" still maintains comfort at the neck when fully closed, but is easier to wear casually than the bigger lapels. LW and JL are good examples of these.

Are these medium lapel sizes 1940s design?

The least amount of overlap, which is almost straight zip just pushed a bit to the side, is the easiest to wear open casually, duh, it's almost a straight zip. However, the tighter lapels is the least comfortable when fully closed to the top, for me. Which is why I never wear it fully closed. But I do wear it just as often as the others because its easiest to wear casually. How does that work. I don't even know myself. The best example is the Aero Daytona.

Is this the 1950s design?

Does lapel go from big to small from the 1930s to 1950s? This is my gateway to vintage jacket now. Gotta get my hands on one from each era to see it for myself.

Lastly is what I realized about shoulder size and sleeve length. Again this is what I found, ymmv.
The shoulders range from 19s to 20s on all these jackets, sleeves in the 25s. The bigger the shoulder the more comfortable it wears. But all the jackets have the similar "nape" measurements of 35" to 35.5".

My final question for the cross zip nation:

Does shoulder gets tighter/neater as the time goes on?
1930s widest shoulder shortest sleeve length
1940s middle of the road
1950s tightest shoulder longest sleeve length

Or is it the other way around?

Or is there no rule at all? It was changing times during those years so. Or is it a regional thing? Like the East Coast had one design rule and the West just the complete opposite and then across the Pond its a mixture?

Friend, Your jackets fit you great! That J24 looks tailor made just for you. Did Stu make a special order for you? I have often difficulties with all of my jackets being a little long on the sleeves. I was wondering if you could share your dress shirt size and jacket size of that j24?

 

[Canuck Panda]

Friend, Your jackets fit you great! That J24 looks tailor made just for you. Did Stu make a special order for you? I have often difficulties with all of my jackets being a little long on the sleeves. I was wondering if you could share your dress shirt size and jacket size of that j24?

The LW is also half size big for me. I bought it here in the Classifieds. It's tagged 46 but it might been a custom job, I am not sure. I am usually a 40 or 42 in suits and 16 34/35 shirts.

 

[photo2u]

I understand. Makes lots of sense. I am 15.5 32/33. The jackets fit you spot on.