Crazy !

[bobm]

There are a range of views possible on this idea. There are also wealthy people who do not spend much money on consumer items like food, clothing or cars. They believe in thrift and may well be called tight by others.

My own take on a "fool and his money" is it can refer to any consumer item bought when it was either unnecessary or could be achieved for less. It's a saying that may apply to smart spending, not whether you can afford something or not.

I was going to say at one point I won't pay $1000 for a leather jacket, let alone $4000. I don't really see the difference in principle. In my case, I am fairly prosperous but I have simply inherited too much Calvinist thrift to justify the spending. For this reason I rarely spend more than $100 on any time of clothing - $20 preferably.

The old saying if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it isn't always true. Sometimes it's the point that matters

I think you hit the point I had in mind with my "a fool and his money" post. I don't disagree with Big Jake and Superflous's comments. And in all honesty, if there was ever a post on any forum that I regret making it was that one. It was an immediate and unfiltered remark and frankly not at all reflective of my own purchasing history or values. And yes value is an extremely subjective word and covers virtually any item that can be bought or bartered for.

My self personally - certainly not rich, though far from poor, just a guy in that huge middle/middle class. But I will use these examples where that phrase applies directly to me.

A few years ago, I was at a Porsche dealership and ended up buying a Macan S - almost on impulse and traded in my 2 y/o Audi Q5. Ok, after driving in that car a few months I realized it simply was a poor choice for me as a commuter and a few months later sold it for the new model A4 sedan. I liked it but well, I was so accustomed to driving SUV's that when I saw the A4 Allroad (a higher riding station wagon version of A4) I traded my 6 month old A4 for the Allroad. That's 3 new cars bought in less than a year, losing tons of $$$ on depreciation alone.Looking back, an extremely foolish way to spend my money. Lesson well learned.

Yet, when I was at the Porsche dealership, the salesperson pointed to the yellow Ferrari out on the lot - that customer simply owns them for a few month until he gets bored with it and trades it in for something similar. Is he foolish? That was my initial reaction, but if that guy can afford to do so and he just has a hankering to try/buy/trade in super exotic cars, good for him.

Also a few years ago, while at Orvis' NY skeet shooting grounds, I ended up buying a new Italian over and under 20 gauge shotgun for about $2500.00. That was about the limit I was willing to spend/could afford - and most of my friends think that is simply crazy. That summer, my brother and I went skeet shooting again and Orvis was hosting and event on the grounds and there were shotguns selling for over 50k. I shook my head for a moment, but again, if guys are into that type of purchase, can appreciate the hand made workmanship and enjoy that shotgun, etc. more power to them.
I don't think them foolish, yet since I have not even taken my shotgun out of its case in over 2 years and have no desire to do so, that $2500.00 was a foolish purchase on my part.


I have a closet - or more, filled with fairly pricey jackets, sweaters, belts, shirts, pants - and a couple of hats that many have not seen the light of day in years. I consider that another example of the "fool and his money" thing. Yet, I have just bought (and posted) about a Lone Pine coat that cost me just under 2k. I have been eyeing that jacket for some time, read the reviews and tried it on many times. Value? Yes, because I appreciate that hand made quality, looks and feel of this coat, its a keeper. Foolish? Not in my eyes and I'm quite happy with my decision to bite the $$ bullet and buy it.

So, again it was a poor phrase to toss out there regarding the OP's example and totally meaningless unless you somehow know that person's thought process as well as financial situation, but I hope this explains my thoughts a bit better.

 

[Cooper A-2]

I'm not really sure anyone should be surprised by this. Hasn't anyone noticed the way this 'hobby' has been going for the last few years?
I remember when I joined TFL, people talked about LW like they were starship money. Seems quite quaint now.
Clearly this shop is just charging what the market will tolerate. This is (so I've been told over and over) natural, and if you can't afford it, that's your problem (or rather, mine).
This jacket is no more expensive than, say, 2 Freewheelers jackets, and people don't seem to have a problem with that.
I'm pretty sure there are members like me with racks and racks of 500, 600, 700 $ jackets. Instead of twenty of those, they could have 15 and this jacket in the OP; it's no less preposterous.
There are people who pay half that for a GW plus a 4 year wait. There must be plenty out there who would pay 3,500 for a GW if it could be delivered in 4 weeks.
'We' share as much responsibility for stupid pricing as much as anyone else; gushing over Shinki and 'made in Japan' like there's some magic ingredient, buying more jackets than ww can reasonably wear, blogging and talking about it on the internet, and creating the demand.
Again, go back 8 years even, and read TFL comments where people are saying 'I could but three Aero's/Eastman's for the price of that LW'.
This is the new normal. Get your credit cards out.

Thx Big J.
you know Japan and Asia. You have the so called local awareness...thx for sharing.
Yes! this is normal for dealing in this region. And thx. happy as can be...in 10 years?? maybe different...now...happy as can be.
This is why we dont even try in other regions nor business schemes...and we do all manufacturing in France.... (with all due respect to all doing others and thinking different ). BTW nobody dealing in this kind of business can predict 10 years ahead in passion or collectors world...I presume...

 

[dannyk]

Fashion and trends are cyclical anyways. If the trend holds some of us here may very well be priced out of the market of new and custom and have to trade, barter and ebay our way for some used jackets. But what happens in 5-10 years this trend could be all but dead, prices drop, some businesses will close, and guys like us jump back in and are still going to be doing what we always do. @Monitor always likes to joke hes poor which I hope Im not stepping on your toes Monitor! ha I too would say for this hobby Im pretty low income. Its definitely a struggle for me to have interests in the things I do. Ive bought exactly 2 new jackets since Ive been collecting a Vanson and a Schott all my other jackets were bought used or traded for. Im at least well off enough for this, but I have to imagine its near impossible for anyone making less than what I do or for younger generation who has our hobbies and interests....unless they have a well-off family. Which again is the entire costume and oddity aspect of all of this. Originally a lot of these items were simply work gear, riding jackets only, made for the poor and working class. They were used and abused. Obviously you will find high end and exceptions to the rule in any era, Im speaking in general thats how a lot of these items were made and marketed. Yet somehow in todays world you wont find many poor/working/middle class people with any of these items. Unless they are the type to buy one really great pair of boots or a jacket and not collect or obsess like we do. A lot of the mall jackets and boots and things we dont necessarily take kindly to are what youll find in their closets. Which is how it is all cyclical. You have working gear discarded at thrift stores or in dads closet. So you have these punks in the 70s and 80s buying them dirt cheap or stealing them from their parents closets. They become on trend and every mall and high end maker charges obscene prices. They die, it starts all over.

 

[Big J]

@bobm,
The fool and his money post wasn't a problem at all. I'm kind of interested in where that maxim comes from, and what purpose it really serves, just for the intellectual exercise.
I think the thing that has surprised me the most is how people who spend thousands on jackets and shocked at a jacket that costs thousands.
I do agree that it is a lot of money for a jacket. I don't like the price point that a lot of manufacturers are heading towards.
The OP has (IIRC) owned every shearling repro offered by every high end repro manufacturer. Given that kind of indulgent spending on unnecessary luxuries, I'm not really sure where the surprise is coming from. Saying that you actually bought two freewheelers for that price doesn't strike me as indicative of someone who has to count the pennies.

 

[Big J]

I'll say this though, the jacket in the OP looks really nice.
My Aero russet/seal B-3 is a size 50, and I'd never sell it because of the emotional attachment (I've had it about 10 years), but having slimmed down a bit, I could use the excuse to get another one in a size 48 with seal brown facings. Put a nice USAAF decal on the shoulder, it'd look quite neat.
Not that I can buy any more flight jackets until November...
Not that I have much chance to wear these aside from walking the dog...

 

[Seb Lucas]

No worries. Hey, I grew up amonst what used to be called "old money ". These were rich folk who would never spend money unwisely. They might have a Jag or a Merc but never a vulgar Ferrari. That was for the foolish 'new money' types. These old families often bought inexpensive clothing and groceries and ate out sparingly. I guess they felt they had nothing to prove.

I guess I've always felt there are many ways of being rich. Some of them involve moderation for it's own sake.

Personally speaking, I have been a fool easily parted with money on many occasions. Some of them good.

 

[GHT]

@bobm,
The fool and his money post wasn't a problem at all. I'm kind of interested in where that maxim comes from, and what purpose it really serves, just for the intellectual exercise.

It was one Thomas Tusser, what he actually said was: "A foole and his monie be soone at debate, which after with sorrow repents him too late." You can read up about him on Wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Tusser

Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a Type B-3 Real McCoy. Actually I stole that from a motto I saw on a sticker in the back of an old MG, that read: "Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you an MGB GT V8.

Something to ponder on next time you take your dog for a walk. It's a quote by Friedman: "Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail."

 

[Mich486]

No worries. Hey, I grew up amonst what used to be called "old money ". These were rich folk who would never spend money unwisely. They might have a Jag or a Merc but never a vulgar Ferrari. That was for the foolish 'new money' types. These old families often bought inexpensive clothing and groceries and ate out sparingly. I guess they felt they had nothing to prove.

I guess I've always felt there are many ways of being rich. Some of them involve moderation for it's own sake.

Personally speaking, I have been a fool easily parted with money on many occasions. Some of them good.

I see what you are trying to say but I don’t think it’s an argument that holds up very well.

Why a Mercedes or a Jaguar are wise money but not a Ferrari if you can afford it. What Mercedes are we even talking about? A class B or an SLS? You surely can buy a cheap second hand Toyota if you just need to move around. Where do you set the bar?

What I think is really to blame is the trend of buying everything on credit (I.e. stuff you can’t afford, of course not talking about buying a house) and then fall behind with the payments. But if you have the means to afford something, go for it.


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[Seb Lucas]

I see what you are trying to say but I don’t think it’s an argument that holds up very well.

Why a Mercedes or a Jaguar are wise money but not a Ferrari if you can afford it. What Mercedes are we even talking about? A class B or an SLS? You surely can buy a cheap second hand Toyota if you just need to move around. Where do you set the bar?

What I think is really to blame is the trend of buying everything on credit (I.e. stuff you can’t afford, of course not talking about buying a house) and then fall behind with the payments. But if you have the means to afford something, go for it.


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Where you set the bar may have nothing to do with how rich you are. That was precisely my point. Maybe I was unclear. Yes, there were some with old Toyota's too. What I was pointing to was that some wealthy people will buy Merc but rarely spend more than $20 on dinner.

In other words, they are not looking for the best of everything just because they're rich. I think there was a view here from some that people who resent $4000 jackets do so because they can't afford them, my point is that being able to afford one or twenty isn't always the point. But hey, I never said this was scientific.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything in today's world. Too much of that going on already. What I do think is that these days more people feel entitled to high cost consumer goods with brand recognition, both in mainstream and niche markets. That's maybe partly the internet for making everything, including subcultures and rare items easy to be a part of.

 

[Big J]

@Seb Lucas, very good point about people's sense of 'consumer entitlement'. There's not actually a lot of that in Japan these days. There used to be, but people today seem to have accepted that 'nice things' are for the 'elite', and that aspiring to become 'elite' is kind of vulgar.

@Mich486, interesting comment about credit. For the last 5 years Japan has had an ultra-loose monetary policy that has doubled monetary supply. What this means is that there's a glut of liquidity in banks and financial institutions, since people have no expectation that the economy will actually improve in the absence of structural reforms. They don't feel confident to borrow the money.
This is highly frustrating for policy makers, who have directed the bank of Japan to charge negative interest on the liquid assets (cash) held by financial institutions.
TLDR? My wife's bank is begging her business to borrow money she doesn't need so that they can avoid the financial penalties for not loaning it.
People who don't need the money in Japan can easily borrow a wheelbarrow of cash with very little expectation that it will ever have to be paid back at any cost.

 

[Mich486]

Where you set the bar may have nothing to do with how rich you are. That was precisely my point. Maybe I was unclear. Yes, there were some with old Toyota's too. What I was pointing to was that some wealthy people will buy Merc but rarely spend more than $20 on dinner.

In other words, they are not looking for the best of everything just because they're rich. I think there was a view here from some that people who resent $4000 jackets do so because they can't afford them, my point is that being able to afford one or twenty isn't always the point. But hey, I never said this was scientific.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything in today's world. Too much of that going on already. What I do think is that these days more people feel entitled to high cost consumer goods with brand recognition, both in mainstream and niche markets. That's maybe partly the internet for making everything, including subcultures and rare items easy to be a part of.

Ok I understand. I’m sure rich people that decide to live like they are on a budget do exist. I think I also know a few. I just don’t understand where is the good and why not spending more than $20 on a dinner out when you can afford it, to use your example. Is that to save money for your loved ones? Do you give away everything to charity or some cause you believe in? Hats off to you in that case but otherwise I don’t get the reasoning.

Just to make it clear I’m not advocating this lifestyle:

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[Seb Lucas]

Ok I understand. I’m sure rich people that decide to live like they are on a budget do exist. I think I also know a few. I just don’t understand where is the good and why not spending more than $20 on a dinner out when you can afford it, to use your example. Is that to save money for your loved ones? Do you give away everything to charity or some cause you believe in? Hats off to you in that case but otherwise I don’t get the reasoning.

Just to make it clear I’m not advocating this lifestyle:

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This is an interesting discussion but maybe I'm testing people's patience.

I suspect what you're struggling to conceptualise is a rich person who thinks paying $50 of a t shirt is too much - even with millions in the bank.

There's nothing more to this idea than this. Some people set limits regardless of their wealth. Why? They gain pleasure by being frugal. They don't value brands and consumerism. They are a kind of minimalist of spending. Are they better than rich people who spend $200 on a t-shirt and have 60 of them? Who can say? But I do find them more interesting.

 

[navetsea]

Think it has to do with how quick this money comes in, maybe people who gain their wealth by doing old fashion normal business, wise spending and investment wont buy an ultra expensive item since it is in their mindset already and how they become rich to begin with and the wealth is accumulated slowly so they become rich at mature age, but people who become rich all the sudden especially at young age like pro athlete, celebrity, etc yeah they spend as fast as their money come, not so different with kids of wealthy parents.

 

[Carlos840]

This is an interesting discussion but maybe I'm testing people's patience.

I suspect what you're struggling to conceptualise is a rich person who thinks paying $50 of a t shirt is too much - even with millions in the bank.

There's nothing more to this idea than this. Some people set limits regardless of their wealth. Why? They gain pleasure by being frugal. They don't value brands and consumerism. They are a kind of minimalist of spending. Are they better than rich people who spend $200 on a t-shirt and have 60 of them? Who can say? But I do find them more interesting.

People here seem to want to put all rich people under the same umbrella, it appears once you are rich you become a fool, you only buy the most expensive and you spend too much on everything, and you are only interested in crap designer labels but without knowing they are crap...
Doesn't sound like much fun being rich after all! Could it be that not all rich people are the same and spend the same way?

 

[red devil]

Isn't it simply a matter of principles?
Some people brag that they only fly in business or first class "I couldn't deal with economy!", while others who could easily afford it do not see the value of paying several times the fare for that.

I know a person who is very frugal in his lifestyle but extremely generous with his friends when going out. He simply doesn't see the need of having the latest TVs and SUVs, but he sees the value of having a good meal with friends.

Principles and priorities.

 

[Big J]

@red devil, I agree with that.
That's a good idea for a thread in fact! 'What other things do jacket junkies feel it's not ok to go for the cheapest option?'
For me, after I've met all my financial responsibilities, and put a little into the kids college fund, I'll happily pay for business class flights, some clothes, Cohibas Esplendidos, imported cheese and chocolate, and brand name medication.
I always go for the cheapest cotton socks, I'll never buy champagne more expensive than Moët, and my white T-shirts come in packs of six from Costco.
Anyone else?

 

[ton312]

@red devil, I agree with that.
That's a good idea for a thread in fact! 'What other things do jacket junkies feel it's not ok to go for the cheapest option?'
For me, after I've met all my financial responsibilities, and put a little into the kids college fund, I'll happily pay for business class flights, some clothes, Cohibas Esplendidos, imported cheese and chocolate, and brand name medication.
I always go for the cheapest cotton socks, I'll never buy champagne more expensive than Moët, and my white T-shirts come in packs of six from Costco.
Anyone else?

I will spend $ on good food and drink, pants and jeans, shoes are set at whatever the going rate for a pair of chuck Taylor's go for. Cheap t-shirts. Button downs from thrift or Kohls, occasional j crew. Usually my spending is tied to whatever my borderline "on the spectrum" mind has fixated upon.

So it's somewhat in flux. For a vehicle, as long as it's a 4x4 truck I don't care. I don't like sports cars or jewelry and I've become a coward, so my motorcycle is a neglected pile of rust and dust. I'm also far more willing to fork out cash for experiences, travel etc. that let me spend pure free time with my family.

 

[red devil]

@red devil, I agree with that.
That's a good idea for a thread in fact! 'What other things do jacket junkies feel it's not ok to go for the cheapest option?'
For me, after I've met all my financial responsibilities, and put a little into the kids college fund, I'll happily pay for business class flights, some clothes, Cohibas Esplendidos, imported cheese and chocolate, and brand name medication.
I always go for the cheapest cotton socks, I'll never buy champagne more expensive than Moët, and my white T-shirts come in packs of six from Costco.
Anyone else?

Great idea, here it is:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...s-not-ok-to-go-for-the-cheapest-option.96390/

I am with you when it comes to chocolate!

 

[pak]

Unless you are giving me your money, I have little or no interest in what you do with it.

 

[navetsea]

I really dont care if a neighbor buy another car as long as they have a place to park them and not parked in front of my house or along the narrow road of my neighborhood. It is getting more common now here in my neighborhood that people buy another car and then just parked outside, sometime on both sides of the road, with their side mirror left open day and night. Especially when it is ckearly they have a space inside their own property but rather to leave it outside for practicality or laziness.