Cowboy Felt

[Fedora]

I'm just upset with the custom dress hat maker who know about the makeup of western hats though truly knows little of what went into making the dress hats' like they made in the 20's through 50's.

Kind sir, please enlighten the ignorant dress hatters. Since most of those dress hatters never made cowboy hats(you generally work the felt differently on stiff hats), they know little of making a fine cowboy hat. I am very interested in learning how to properly make a dress hat. Do we all need to get together and show up at your house, so you can show us?

I just don't like the buffalo customers into a belief mentality that many hatters took in the past when they themselrves were learning that dress hat felt is different than cowboy hat felt.

We need specifics here. Are you saying dress hatters do not know the difference between dress felt and western felt? That is absurd. Even a non hatter such as yourself knows the difference. Back up your insults with some facts and proof to your assertions. You are slinging arrows here, that have no tips.

Much of the problem i find with hatters today is that they learn little to nothing about dress hat felts... and when they try to make dress hats which are from our perspective the soft fedora and the homburg, they end up using the wrong materials and making the wrong claims regarding wear.

The problem lies not with the hatter, but the supplier. There is a difference here, and everyone should realize that difference. Do not confuse the hatter with the feltmaker.

There is a difference in the felt content and density and thickness that is needed for the hat to take the wear of being soft and pliable and still be able to bounce back into shape and not wear right out. The mixes of furs in the softer hats allow for these traits. different beavers and hairs and nutria.

A little knowledge is dangerous. Blends can be used for any hat, dress or western. The reason is nothing more than pricing. Nothing more. Do not create mis-information regarding certain blends being used for certain hats. You are doing this board a great dis-service by promoting invalid ideas. The ultimate fur for any hat is beaver. If you want a hat that shares characteristics with beaver hats, but is cheaper to make and sell, thereby serving a market for a lower priced hat, you use other furs,(cheaper) and add enough beaver to the blend to get the desired result. There is not a magical felt that happens when you combine furs. Instead, you can make a very good, economical felt by blending. You can sell it at a price that will meet particular market demands, at least this is the way it was in the old days. Do not forget that when John B. Stetson first went into business, he shocked the established hat companies by using more beaver and nutria in his hats than was common at the time. To the other hatters, it was nonsensical, adding that great fur, as they could produce hats without it, although inferior hats.

You leave yourself wide open by your statements Matt. Your assertions can not be documented, as they are nothing more than your own opinion. Facts that hatters know as a matter of course roll off your back like water off a duck's back. Now that is about the most ridiculous thing about this. In my neck of the woods, we call that stupidity. I just hope folks who are honestly interested in the truth of felt and hats, will look farther and not just accept your statements, or mine. Fedora

 

[mthatter]

A little bit of felt history

The main U.S. supplier of dress weight felt bodies (beaver) started making these about 10 years ago. Before that, the choice was wool or rabbit from outside the U.S.. Portugal is still somewhat of a mystery to me as to when they started to produce beaver bodies, when I was there in the early 90's I wasn't aware of them at least in the western weights and had not heard of any being produced there back then.

My point being you now have these quality felts available to the hatmakers along with Stetson trying to produce a better quality dress hat. It's a good start.

John
www.rockymountainhatcompany.com

 

[Matt Deckard]

I leave myself wide open because I am wide open. Biring it on... I want people to buy hats... buy all beaver if you like, I've had a few. I have talked to hatters and felters. So maybe your experience is different. Talk to some vintage hatters. for so long you were claiming that modern hatters made their goods better. You later bought some vintage hats and saw the difference. also bought some vintage bodies to make hats and saw the difference... You can say it's the age or curing that time creates over time... maybe so... bnottom line the felt is different. Techniques are still being discovered by modern hatters that haven't been used since the 50's.

You said all beaver is the beat all end all and doesn't shrink. You may notice that with your vintage bodies though not with your modern. You have shown over and over again one thing then that one thing has changed. You trust random hatters blindly and then when you see their faslehoods you change your opinion. I go by what I see and what I wear... Mostly those hats are vintage. I have a stack of hats from custom hatters. They don't stack up when compared to vintage, especially the all beaver hats which always tend to need to be thicker because when they are made thin they breakdown with wrinkling or rolling. We have had this debate many times... I haven't wavered on my points though you are constantly shifting... shifting hatters you trust and your knowledge on felt. I know what I see and test for myself.

I have a body here of yours... haven't recieveed the address of the next person it is supposed to go to. I can't wear it in the rain or the sun or the snow. I can't stick it in the shower then leave it in the elements and measure and check pictures of it before and after to see it it drooped. I can't try to roll it up 50 times to see if the wrinkles come out.
It is a very smooth body... even has some sort of pattern on the bottom that makes it look like it was heavily pressed. I can see that it is smooth and dense... that does not make a quality hat. You say it's all beaver... it's noce thin and soft... though time will tell... (not you)... time will show whether or not it is a well wearing hat.

I thought we already agreed to dissagree on this?

Who gets it next? PM me.

 

[clevispin]

Hot-diggity they're at it again - Yeehah my plan worked!

m

 

[Pilgrim]

Boys, don't make us pull this car over!

 

[Byrne Sherwood]

One's got a bullwhip and the other a pistola. Should be interesting.

 

[Fedora]

They don't stack up when compared to vintage, especially the all beaver hats which always tend to need to be thicker because when they are made thin they breakdown with wrinkling or rolling.

Ok, you have said this before. It is nonsensical, if in fact the hat was pure beaver. All I can say, is you have not examined pure beaver felt, but thought it was. What you are describing goes against everything known about beaver felt. That is why I have a very difficult time. I would bet what you have examined is as close to pure beaver as rat fur. Rat fur sounds to be better. Matt, you are the only guy that supposedly has knowledge about felt that makes this claim. You stand alone in your accessment. Therefore, it is not believable. And that is why we argue. lol

I recall you judging pure beaver using a hat you bought from a hatter in New York. Supposedly a high content beaver hat. I would bet that if you had taken that hat to a hatter and asked if it was beaver, you would have been told no way. Some hatters are less than honest, and that is apparent by your experience with pure beaver. Heck, the hat was probably rabbit, and poor rabbit at that, but you could not tell. That is what I feel happened.

for so long you were claiming that modern hatters made their goods better.

That is indeed not the truth. I have never claimed modern hatters made their goods better. A good hatter should produce as good a hat as a vintage hat, workmanship wise. That is a no brainer. I have said I have seen better made modern hats than SOME vintage hats that I have seen. All vintage hats are not jewels, if made by a factory and were cheaply priced.

You said all beaver is the beat all end all and doesn't shrink.

No, you mis- quote me once again. Perhaps you should re-read those posts. What I did say, is in modern felt, beaver is the way to go because it will not shrink as fast as other modern blends. It is more durable. It will last longer. There is a reason why beaver is more expensive, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

We have had this debate many times... I haven't wavered on my points though you are constantly shifting... shifting hatters you trust and your knowledge on felt. I know what I see and test for myself.

Ah, it seems to me someone refuses to change opinions even when presented with facts. That is your problem, not mine. I have changed opinions on some things, but this came about when I actually started to make hats, and learned that what you hear from hatters may or may not be the truth. And that is why I started making hats. I got tired of the lies, and the hype. I honestly do not trust a statment that comes from a non hatter,(especially when I hear nonsensical statements) the same way I would not trust you telling me how to fix a Chevy 350 engine that needed a tuneup. I would ask a mechanic. Sure, a hat fan could tell you if a hat looked nice, felt nice and wore well, but when you get to things that hatters have to deal with, and live with, opinions from the hat fans helps little in sourcing or solving problems. If I had of believed you about pure beaver felt, I would have not even looked at pure beaver. I am glad I did look, and not only at one body made by one factory. It seems to me, you are the one who has bought into the hype that is given out all too often by certain hatters. You parrot them well.

It is a very smooth body... even has some sort of pattern on the bottom that makes it look like it was heavily pressed. I can see that it is smooth and dense... that does not make a quality hat. You say it's all beaver... it's noce thin and soft... though time will tell... (not you)... time will show whether or not it is a well wearing hat.

My friend, if you cannot see the quality in that body, I give up. You are a lost cause. But, I knew this already. I wasted my time in sending that to you. I was trying to show you what a thin beaver body looked like. Please send that to John(hatter) asap. I want someone who knows felt to look at it, personally. And John would love to see what Portugal is producing these days.

I thought we already agreed to dissagree on this?

Yes, we can always keep that pact. lol Matt, I love arguing with you, and if you agreed with me on anything, it would not be fun anymore. So, folks, while me and Matt will always go at it, at the end of the day, it is just hats and felt and such. Plus I love our disagreements. I have no hard feelings toward this gentleman at all, so do not read more into this than actually is. Regards, Fedora

 

[Miss Neecerie]

I find....that felt made out of Cowboys is far far too rough. Must be all that time in the sun.

IT worker felt is so much smoother and needs less bleaching to have a nice even color.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Fedora,

Just stop telling people what you think I am saying and what you think I have seen... You obviously aren't me and can't say like a politician that I speak from inexperience since when we started this a few years back you were the newcomer to vintage and looked at it back then with distrust and still apparently look at it with the same distrtust... wear it around!

You used to take them apart and make vintage hats into Indy hats... it's only recently that you have owned or even worn the hats. You don't know what I have, if they are vintage or all beaver or blends... Most of my vintage dress hats are blends!

When you have to discect my arguements to try and back yours I lose trust in what you say... just stand behind what you say and don't worry about what you think I am seeing... you don't know! It's like the Russians telling their people they have it better when the US is just sitting there trying to find out what's being said behind the iron curtain. I want to be an open book. I learn from what I see. pretty hats that are smooth and dense I have seen before... doesn't make it a long lasting felt.

All I know is that I am happy with the blends and dissatisfied by what I have seen and heard of your and Art's and Gladhatters and Optimo's and Gary White's and Gelot's and Borsalino's or O'Farrell's or Rand's or all the other versions I have seen of All beaver dress hats made by modern hatters. attempts to make soft thin pliable modern hat that is all beaver hat that does not shrink or droop or crack in the ways that the vintage blends do not shrink or droop or crack... hasn't been done. You sent me that portugal body... we'll see how it fairs after it has been tested.

So I'm a lost cause. I can't tell if the shoes wear well until I put them on and wear them... or they are tested.

They may look really really pretty... though can they hold up? I don't know... looking at the outside of the leather and looking at the sole they look fantastic, though some Louisville Sluggers break on the firt hit. Time told you those other hatters hats were not the beat all end all... time will reveal for this one as well.

Until then... the vintage blends are still going... and going... and going with the three main parts that make for me a lasting hat

Those vintage hats were such nice qualty... they were industry made. Most were different grades of rabbit. When they are higher quality they say higher quality in some form or another. Different thicknesses blends and productions back then... and not all beaver!

The highest end Dress hatrs from Borsalino in the 20's said Nutria on them.

as for the vintage blends...

less droop
no shrink
rollup


You can have the last word then I'm locking down this thread.

PEACE!

 

[clevispin]

Lockin' 'em down boys...

MOSES: An' when they was no meat we ate fowl. An'
when they was no fowl we ate crawdad. An' when they
was no crawdad to be foun', we ate San'.
HI: You ate what?
MOSES (nodding): We ate San'.
HI: You ate sand?!
MOSES: Dass right . . .

m

 

[Fedora]

we started this a few years back you were the newcomer to vintage and looked at it back then with distrust and still apparently look at it with the same distrtust... wear it around!

I looked at vintage hats with distrust? Where did you come up with that at? Certainly not any posts that I made. You have me confused with someone else. So, let me set the record straight once and for all, so we can start with clear idea of exactly what I have said. When you attribute things to me that I do not recall thinking, much less saying, it tends to cloud up any discussion or debate.

First, I have never distrusted vintage hats. In fact, when I first started buying vintage hats I immediately saw the quality of the felt was so much different than what I had bought. And my friend, I have spent thousands of dollars on modern hats. I have owned every modern hat out there. I therefore have seen everything that the big guys have to offer. Since that time, I have seen the vintage hats that most here love, and that includes me. I think I have seen much more felt and varieties of felt than you. I have worked that same felt. There are people who have seen more than me and worked that felt, but those guys are hatters. I have reblocked every brand out there in the modern felt, and a heck of alot of vintage felt. Sir, that is where I speak from.

My stance on vintage felt is that most of it is great stuff. It is better overall than any modern dress felt being produced today. The only felt that comes close is what Portugal is producing today. I am talking blended felt here. Now, I have said that the only way to approach the quality felt of yesteryear is to use a pure beaver body. And as far as I have seen personally to date, this has remained true to me.

The things that I have changed my mind on involves actually working with felt. I was told something about felt, and found it not to be true. I was honest enough to admit it as well. Afterall, if a change of mind is a bad thing I doubt we would be flying in space nowadays. People change their minds Matt, when they are trying to understand somethng. It is an evolutionary dead end if we don't. The man that I distrust is the one that cannot change when evidence is beating them over the head. To hold this against a guy is ludicrous. I am sure you will not agree.

learn from what I see. pretty hats that are smooth and dense I have seen before... doesn't make it a long lasting felt.

If a dense felt is not a durable felt, you just changed the laws of nature. Ok, the other type of felt is porous and stretchy. You can stretch one of these bodies twice as much as a dense body. Most people that really know felt like the dense, smooth felt the best. Felt that can be pounced really smooth has felted properly, and consists of a large portion of fine underfur with no filler. You ever seen real underfur? Rabbit, mink, beaver? Which is finer, micronwise? Throw some common sense in here. Which underfur would make a finer felt, the underfur that is 50 microns, or the underfur that is 25 microns? (I am making up the fiber measurements as I do not recall the exact numbers) Well, I know which one I would choose.

All I know is that I am happy with the blends and dissatisfied by what I have seen and heard of your and Art's and Gladhatters and Optimo's and Gary White's and Gelot's and Borsalino's or O'Farrell's or Rand's or all the other versions I have seen of All beaver dress hats made by modern hatters. attempts to make soft thin pliable modern hat that is all beaver hat that does not shrink or droop or crack in the ways that the vintage blends do not shrink or droop or crack... hasn't been done. You sent me that portugal body... we'll see how it fairs after it has been tested

If you honestly feel this way, how about a challenge? I do not trust you, as I feel you do not want to be proved wrong. And I want this contest to be legit. We need an independent person here. You pick one of your vintage blends, raw brimmed and I will make one of my hats. We then send these hats to a person that we are both comfortable with. This person needs to have an outside job, in the elements. He wears your hat one day, and mine the next. He stores them in the same room. If he exposes one to rain, the other one must be exposed as well at some point in time. He must treat both hats the same as much as possible. We let him field test these hats for 1 year. At the end of the year, we get his impressions, and loads of pics. Are you up for it. Put your hat where your mouth is. I feel my hats, being made of modern felt that has not been aged for 50 years, will taper some. But, I also feel my hat will look better, and show little wear compared to what you send. I think yours will be falling apart. I am ready, any volunteers? Are you game Matt? If not, we will argue about this from here on out, every now and then.

Until then... the vintage blends are still going... and going... and going with the three main parts that make for me a lasting hat

Of course, you do recognize that those fine vintage hats I and everyone else have bought are mostly brand new looking. Stored in a closet, in a hat box and not worn. If you got one that was worn out, you would figure you got burned on the deal. Come on, get real here. There are few old cowboy hats around. Why? The owners would wear them completely out and then hated to buy a new one. So, few have survived. Right there in the Stetson Book. What we are getting mostly on ebay are new old hats. You know what breaks down felt Matt? The sun's rays. My hats will still be staying together when your daily wearer vintage hat has been buried in the hat cementary.
Take one of your vintage hats and wear it each and every day, in the rain, and all weather conditions. I know you could never do this, as you swap your hats out, but unless you actually do this, you have no basis for most of your assertions. You are assuming. Most folks that buy and wear my hats wear them as work hats, and only own one. They don't have the pleasure of swapping them out, and few are worn as you would wear your hats. How much time do you spend outside each day? I have a surveyor who wears his AB everyday, outside, in the rain, in the sun. I say you have no basis for comparing anything. I would love to see a new modern pure beaver hat in a real field test with a vintage blend, lightweight felt. I would place money on mine coming back after a year needing a reblock but intact and strong as a mule. The vintage blend would have holes in it. Worn out. Sierra Madre-esque.


Ok, go ahead and lock it down. My last word is you are wrong on pure beaver felt, and have not really looked into it. You are still basing your impressions on a non beaver hat you bought from a guy who likes those 5 dollar bodies from Yugoslavia. That has always been my grievance with you. I am disturbed by folks who draw conclusions without seeing real pure beaver.(and you have to admit this is what you did when this first came up on COW and you have struggled to maintain that invalid position) I see nothing wrong with these debates, and at least they give folks the other side of the issue. Fedora