Cowboy Felt

[clevispin]

There are hundreds of hatters making the western style hats - cowboy hats. Some of these things sell for thousands. Are they using the same felt our guys use?

m

 

[Kaleponi Craig]

There are hundreds of hatters making the western style hats - cowboy hats. Some of these things sell for thousands. Are they using the same felt our guys use?

m

Thousands? I can't imagine a better hat than a pure beaver (selling for $250 to $700 depending on where you buy them). Maybe the cowboy hat selling for thousands has a diamond hatband...KC

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Suits are now being made with 24K gold woven into the cloth. Imagine what could be stuck into felt ...

.

 

[clevispin]

Can't really argue with the money aspect. But if any hat has overtaken the fedora then its the cowboy hat. I'm guessing that amongst the country music singers, real cowboys and Texans there has got to be a market for a very high quality product. I'm wondering if our custom fedora guys source from the same vendors as the high quality cowboy hatter do. DO THEY KNOW SOMETHING WE DON'T?

M

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

My limited experience with cowboy hats has been that they're thicker and much stiffer. My black Stetson 4X feels as if it would stop a small caliber bullet.

 

[jamespowers]

My limited experience with cowboy hats has been that they're thicker and much stiffer. My black Stetson 4X feels as if it would stop a small caliber bullet.

Yes, your handy, dandy western hat. It will stop bullets up to .38 caliber, drive nails, the brim can be used as a saw and if it has a fedora bash, the peak can be used a a pick in a pinch.
Uh, no thanks. Something that hard, thick and stiff doesn't belong on my head. The western hatters use different bodies than dress hatters to start with. They are thicker and have more stiffener at the core right at the beginning. I sometimes wonder if they have to be blocked on an anvil with a hammer. :eusa_doh:

Regards,

J

 

[perterra]

Myself, I much prefer a stiff hat to a floppy one.

 

[Fedora]

I sometimes wonder if they have to be blocked on an anvil with a hammer.

lol Actually, heat does wonders to the stiff felt. Becomes putty -like until it cools. While many dislike the stiff felt found on modern western hats, we must remember that dress hats and western hats swapped places in the stiffness department as time went by. For instance, Stetson got his start making staple or western hats. Now, these early western hats were not stiff at all, but soft. At the time, or perhaps a bit prior, many dress hats were stiff, including fedoras. It is funny that we forget the actual history of dress hats and western hats. The formillions and conformateurs that most western hatters live by today were originally made for dress hats. So, the dress hats got soft and floppy, and the western hats got stiff. Ironic don't you think?

Western bodies bought today contain more fur than dress bodies. And as mentioned, they are thicker and more stiffener is added at the factory.

I do not know when the change occurred in western hats, but I think it was brought on by Hollywood so the good guy had a smart, well formed hat to go with his nicely tailored clean clothes. It then became the rule rather than the exception and continues until this very day. Instead of just serving as protection against the elements, the style factor arose and became more important than function. IMHO.

Something that hard, thick and stiff doesn't belong on my head.

Yes, to each his own, but if the western hatter uses the comforateur and formillion, the hat is very comfortable because although it is stiff, it fits the head shape, with the bumps and lumps perfectly. And that pushes up the price of western hats as well. A 7 3/8 western hat custom fitted will only fit one persons head perfectly. Which brings up another point. I still feel that if a hatter uses a comformateur and formillion in order to sell you a soft, self conforming hat, you are getting ripped off. You are gonna pay for this service, and by definition, a self-conforming hat needs no formillion to make it comfortable. Common sense, although I know of a hatter who says it is necessary to use those tools for soft hats. Course, he gets 550 to thousands of dollars for those soft hats that he conforms. You pay for it, but it ain't necessary. Superfluous you might say. Fedora

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

I was able to shape mine by putting it under the tap and soaking it with cold water. Of course, the glued-in liner promptly fell out. It's a beater, anyway.

I then wore it while still wet, using my head for a hat block instead of just a hat rack. lol

 

[GentlemanFarmer]

Stiffer

As one who has spent alot of time in S.E. New Mexico and West Texas, the constant wind would have a softer hat flopping down in front of your eyes all the time. Plus if you've ever been around real, work at it hard outside everyday cowboys, you'd see the wear and tear and abuse those old boys put their hats through. You'd never put a fine dress hat through that kind of punishment, not that a good quality hat body couldn't take it, but would you want to?

I agree with Fedora though. Steam works wonders on a stiff western hat body. I recently steamed my 30 year old Resistol cowboy hat out of an older style western crown crease and into a "Cattleman's" bash. I steamed into an open crown, let it set for a day or two, then steamed in the new bash. Worked great. Now I'm going to have the brim cut down to 2 3/4" and have an "Open Road" style hat in a great medium brown color.

 

[perterra]

lol Actually, heat does wonders to the stiff felt. Becomes putty -like until it cools. While many dislike the stiff felt found on modern western hats, we must remember that dress hats and western hats swapped places in the stiffness department as time went by. For instance, Stetson got his start making staple or western hats. Now, these early western hats were not stiff at all, but soft. At the time, or perhaps a bit prior, many dress hats were stiff, including fedoras. It is funny that we forget the actual history of dress hats and western hats. The formillions and conformateurs that most western hatters live by today were originally made for dress hats. So, the dress hats got soft and floppy, and the western hats got stiff. Ironic don't you think?

I always thought the stiff brim has been a staple of cowboy hats from the flopless and flop free brims advertised in the late 1800's. Hmmm, live and learn

 

[feltfan]

I know the derby is stiff and was originally a horse rider's
helmet. I know that cowboy hats are intended to be worn
while riding horses.

My oldest western style Stetson is a 40s nutria blend
wide brim hat with a telescope crown. It is somewhat
stiff, especially in the 3+ inch brim, but pretty soft in
the crown. I have a Stetson 25 OR from the 50s (just
took it off my head) that is pretty darn stiff. I think it
looks very cool and is nice felt. But it could be more
comfortable.

If I were looking for an outdoorsy work hat, I wouldn't
want it to be as stiff as some of the cowboy hats I've
seen- they'd crease and crack if bent. I'd want something
more like the nutria blend hat. Doesn't flop, but isn't a helmet.

A quick look at Snyder's "Stetson Hats" doesn't help much.
He's not clear on the stiffness timeline. That Boss of the
Plain doesn't look too floppy.

 

[Fedora]

The oldtimers would push the front brim back and secure it to the crown. You ever stood next to a highway to see which hat would fly off your head from passing 18 wheelers. I have. The stiff brimmed hats will leave the head with a great degree of acceleration. The soft floppy brimmed hats will...........flop in the wind. Something has to give, and the brim does. You can keep a stiff brimmed hat on your head if you turn your head downward so the brim acts as a spoiler. But, you can't see a darn thing when you do so. Not good, or practical for a cowboy battling Indians in the old days. Course, you could use a chin stap and let the hat fly off, without losing it. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Much of the problem i find with hatters today is that they learn little to nothing about dress hat felts... and when they try to make dress hats which are from our perspective the soft fedora and the homburg, they end up using the wrong materials and making the wrong claims regarding wear.

There is a difference in the felt content and density and thickness that is needed for the hat to take the wear of being soft and pliable and still be able to bounce back into shape and not wear right out. The mixes of furs in the softer hats allow for these traits. different beavers and hairs and nutria.

 

[Uncle Vern]

Both Resitol and Stetson made what I think of as western dress hats, shorter-brimmed versions of the cowboy hat, with a nice, thin brim and fairly soft crown. I have a Resistol Forth Worth, made in the 50's. It's a great hat. Now that model is made by Stetson, and much stiffer than the old Resistol version. I also have a Stetson Range, from the 60's, with a 3-inch brim that's similar to the resistol, but a bit thicker. You get the best of both worlds-the thin brim is stiff enough to keep from flopping around and the crown is soft enough to make it comfortable, and the whole unit is very lightweight. I'd like to have a pure beaver version with a tall crown and 4-inch brim.
All the new Stetson stuff is junk, but that shouldn't stop anybody. eBay is awash in unworn, vintage western hats, and here in Austin, I've bought over a dozen great vintage western hats for less than 20 bucks a piece.
GentlemanFarmer has a good grip on cowboy hat physics and the way in which working cowboys slowly demolish their hats. They're work tools. Steam loosens them up. Constant handling and soaking will do the same thing, and so will having a horse or a bunch of sheep stomp on it a few times. I have a few old beat work Stetsons covered in stains and grease. I yanked out the stinky headliners and went on with my business. You look at photos from the XO and other big ranches, and those cowboys are wearing some pretty beat lids for work wear. Hats were expensive then. Their "going to town on Saturday night" hats were another thing entirely. Imagine if working cowboys had had access to eBay. Ya, buddy.
Some of my hats are soft as can be, and others are stiff, especially the tall-crown, Gus and Cattlemen 4-inch brim hats that make people want to pull over and show you their driver's licenses. As long as they fit well, I don't care, except for the dress westerns, which I like on the soft side.

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

I just had a mental image of a Wild West internet cafe. "Which one of you yeller-bellied polecats sniped that 10X Stetson? Reach for the sky!"

 

[mthatter]

Much of the problem i find with hatters today is that they learn little to nothing about dress hat felts... and when they try to make dress hats which are from our perspective the soft fedora and the homburg, they end up using the wrong materials and making the wrong claims regarding wear.

Matt, there are 2 camps of hatmakers out there, those that make primarily dress hats and those that make mostly western hats. The dress hat makers including Steve, Art, Optimo, Gary White, GH, and Gary Brown are producing very fine hats with very limited sources for materials. This may come as a surprise to you but there are only two maybe three felt manufacturers who can produce a high quality dress weight hat body. It may not be what you desire but never the less is a fine body and better than the commercially made hats. There simply is not much of a choice. These hatmakers are historically accurate and strive to give you guys the styles you want. What more can you ask for?

So there you have a handful of custom dress hatmakers doing the best they know how with very limited resources. I personally think they all do a fantastic job.

Clevispin, there are not hundreds of western hatmakers, there may be 30-40 that do it full time and probably fewer that actually have a brick and morter storefront.

As far as wear goes, how you wear the hat dictates the life of a hat. Some folks can wear that wool felt hat for 20 years while somebody else can wear out the highest quality hat in no time. I make hats primarily for cowboys, wranglers, outfitters, guides, competitive and recreational horsemen, and fishermen. The dress weight hats would simply not hold up for long thus the more substantial felt for this crowd of hatwearers. Anyone that has owned a high quality western hat also knows that these hats soften up but still hold their shape.

I would not expect city people to wear western hats as an everday hat nor do I hardly ever see folks here in Montana wearing fedoras ( I do see many open road styles here though). Each style of hat has it's own intended purpose suited to the individual and where they live.

Matt, I also like your avatar, here in my world we pack a minimum 44 magnum loaded as hot and heavy as you can stand to shoot.

John
www.rockymountainhatcompany.com

 

[Matt Deckard]

Thanks... I know there are few felters that make dress hat materials... I also know some of the hatters dictate how the machinery is used to create the felt and supply their own fur in some cases. makes it so they aren't complete slaves to the felter. I'm just upset with the custom dress hat maker who know about the makeup of western hats though truly knows little of what went into making the dress hats' like they made in the 20's through 50's. It's changing. I am seeing the hatters reverse many of the statements they used to argue as they learn more and have more on hand to study... I just don't like the buffalo customers into a belief mentality that many hatters took in the past when they themselrves were learning that dress hat felt is different than cowboy hat felt. The open Road style by stetson is a dress hat felt... started out as a fedora though evolved into a cross hat.

Thanks... The second cameraman insisted that I point the gun off to the side for the avatar.

 

[Byrne Sherwood]

Hot damn! This has been a most educational thread-thanks to all who have contributed, hatters especially.

 

[Pilgrim]

Going back to the original comments in the thread, there is no question in my mind that the modern felt hat market is a western one.

We all hope that dress hats become more popular, but the volume is in the western market, not just in the US West, but in the South and country-wide. My daughter's boyfriend is a salesperson for Corral Western Wear - at the recent Greeley Stampede, he sold hundreds of hats in two weeks. His record was 43 hats in one hour.

I suspect that you won't find that kind of sales volume for dress hats anywhere, at any event, but this was at just ONE of the many western rodeos and events found across the western US. Western hats selling in the thousands? You darn betcha, Buck-o! Western hats selling FOR thousands? Absolutely. Western hats have become presentation items and status items. There isn't huge volume in $1000 hats, but they do sell. Check this: Colorado State University hat promo, which offers 20X and pure Beaver hats. If memory serves, the 20X is about $1000 and the pure Beaver is $2000 ( I could be off, as prices aren't included on the page.)

I should note that the Greeley Stampede is a big one, second in this area only to the Cheyenne Stampede and the Denver Stock Show. But then consider the stock shows in Houston, San Antonio, etc.

And if you've seen photos of well-used western hats from ranches or just everyday folks in the west, you've seen that they end up covered in sweat stains and looking like they went halfway through a garbage disposal and were pulled back out.

Stiff? With good reason. Tough? They better be.

Of course, the majority of western hats are worn only for show, many of them by guys who would never put gravel in the back of their $40,000 pickup. But they're still buying hats...and sometimes, very expensive hats.