Copying a Custom????

[portolan]

Let's assume a certain FL member (and no, he doesn't belong to the Secret Hat Society - really it doesn't exist! shakeshead) sees a custom made hat on another lounger's pate in a pretty picture.....Is it ethical and proper for said lounger to show the hat to said lounger's hat maker friend and say "Make me one just like that? Or is a custom hat, custom and somewhat proprietary to the owner or maker? The guy in the picture paid a lot of money, said "so many inches for the brim," "such and such a bash," etc....Is it wrong for someone else to then "appropriate the design and shape for their own pate? Does the hat maker or the hat buyer own the design? There is one certain hat on the pate of one certain lounger that I think is just about perfect. Is there an unwritten rule (just like the unwritten rules for the SHS - which remain unwritten because it doesn't exist).....about copying custom hat designs?

 

[Wil Tam]

It'll be wrong

IMHO I feel that it would be unethical to have a designer to reverse engineer a product developed & created by someone else .... In business that would be considered stealing, pirating or cloning. But many companies do it anyway with subtle differences in their own creation ... Stetson Open Road [originator] would be a prime example ... How many clones can you count off the top of your head?

If you want the same 'custom' hat, you should ask the person that created it in the first place to make you one ... but if all you want to do is mass produce a custom design to sell, it would no longer be unique or custom one of a kind, so why do it?

This reminds me of a good friend having her trademark chest tattoo copied by a man, just because he thought it would look 'neat' on his chest, what a spazz :eusa_doh:

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Now playing: Magnetic Fields, the - Blue You
via FoxyTunes

 

[Alucard73]

Copy away. Once it (the hat) has been published to the World Wide Web...it is fair game. It is a fair bet that in the past hundred years or so of fedoras, it (the hat) has been done before...so nothing is really original. Be happy and take it as a compliment.

Alucard, Esq.

 

[zetwal]

You couldn't copyright the tiny differences that differentiate most fedoras one from another another - nor should you expect to.

Marketing language and branding are another matter - Steven Stetson comes to mind. So too if you were to develop a unique pigmentation formula or felting process, etc. But this is something else entirely.

I suspect that most hatters would be loathe to surreptitiously use client A's exact custom design specifications file for client B's hat if those specifications are somehow truly distinctive and highly personalized in nature.

But having a custom hatter copy the look of some other hat (custom or production, lounger or otherwise) from a photo certainly isn't any big deal.

 

[jimmy the lid]

There are only so many ways to make a hat.

Yup. (See the "jeweled bee" line of cases...)

Portolan -- I think that if you see a particular style and color combo that you really dig and that you think would look great on you (whether inspired by a vintage or a custom hat) -- go for it!

Cheers,
JtL

 

[kaosharper1]

Copying vintage isn't a problem, but I would think that copying a signature hat, or an edition would be an issue. For instance, Art Fawcett has a line of limited edition hats and I don't think that copying one of them would be very ethical. On the other hand, using them for inspiration is OK.

 

[jimmy the lid]

For instance, Art Fawcett has a line of limited edition hats and I don't think that copying one of them would be very ethical. On the other hand, using them for inspiration is OK.

I actually think that you have something there, kaosharper. Hey -- if you want a signature design hat that looks like something Art Fawcett makes -- give Art a call! I would like to think that many custom hatters out there would take this approach in any event (but perhaps that's wishful thinking...)

On the other hand, if we're talking more generally about brim widths, crown heights, color and style of ribbon -- that's fair game, IMHO.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Colby Jack]

Looks to me like a member of the SHS (which doesn't exist), just gave the go ahead to a conspiracy of sorts , and to another member of a society that doesn't exist....Wait a minute....I didn't see a thing...

 

[jimmy the lid]

Wait a minute....I didn't see a thing...

It's best that way...lol...assuming that I even know what you're talking about...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

Here's William Powell as detective Philo Vance in "The Kennel Murder Case". I was watching this movie one evening and the hats just jumped out at me. So I wrote to Art Fawcett, well known here as Vintage Silhouettes, and asked if he could re-create this one. Of course there were no credits in the trailer of the movie for "hatter", and in any case, I think it must be in the public domain by now unless the original designer had copyrighted it and his or her estate has been renewing the copyright over the years.

Art agreed and this is the result:

I know that it frustrated him to no end, but he didn't have a flange that would enable him to reproduce the curl at the rear of the brim. I am very fond of the hat, but I still wish I could get that curl.

No, I don't have a problem with copying an extinct hat.

 

[handlebar bart]

Art agreed and this is the result:

I know that it frustrated him to no end, but he didn't have a flange that would enable him to reproduce the curl at the rear of the brim. I am very fond of the hat, but I still wish I could get that curl.

No, I don't have a problem with copying an extinct hat.

Wonderful:eusa_clap Could you please post this hat in the Art Fawcett hall of fame thread so this wonderful hat doesn't get lost here. Really nice

 

[portolan]

Great Hat and Great Glasses....Wow!

To clarify, I wasn't thinking of anything commercial, just having someone make me a hat like one I have admired on the head of a fellow lounger....Phil

 

[Colby Jack]

It's best that way...lol...assuming that I even know what you're talking about...

Cheers,
JtL

What were we talking about???....

 

[avedwards]

If it was unethical, then the custom hatter probably wouldn't allow it. Just a guess, maybe a hat-making lounger can comment on how they would act.

 

[Ordinary Guy]

I guess I feel that if we are not talking about something original by a hatter to sell to all customers, just something that you saw a pic of that someone asked to be made for him/her you liked and couldn't buy.....

And you don't live anywhere near this person, then I would be inclined to go ahead and get one made. I wouldn't do this if there were any chance of bumping into said lounger at any time in the future . It was his idea and obviously a good one or no one would want to copy it, so give him his due if you live near by... Just my two cents.

 

[Caity Lynn]

Personally, This reminds me of the secret "girl rules to dating" ( I don't expect you gents to understand that reference) so I would handle it the same way. I would PM the member and perhaps even his hatmaker and ask permission. Just to be POSITIVE you weren't stepping on any toes. Given the fact you HAVE asked this question you are obviously concerned about proper conduct, and would most likely abide by their decisions. If you didn't ask at all you wouldn't have cared about propriety, you would've simply gone ahead and had the hat made. [huh]

 

[tonyb]

Imitation is the sincerest form ...

I can see, as a matter of courtesy, leaving another hatter's "signature elements" alone, or at the very least acknowledging the source of "inspiration" should the subject arise.

The double and triple bows I produce may not be everybody's shot of bourbon, but I keep getting requests for them. So I suppose it has become a signature style. But I don't own it. I'd seen similar bows before (of course), and tracing the style back to its originator would be impossible, I would think, considering the number of hatters that have come and gone over the centuries. And besides, it doesn't require an unusual level of imagination. So it likely occurred to several different people, totally independent of one another, to do something similar.

As an aside ... I was paging through a book on ribbon work at a local specialty fabrics store recently. Wow, real purty stuff some people do with ribbon. There was nothing I saw in there that would translate directly into men's hats (not any I would make, anyway), but I can't imagine that the people who shell out the dough for that book wouldn't, if not copy what they see in it, at least use the images as jumping-off points for their own work.

Painters visit galleries, musicians attend concerts, etc.

 

[Wil Tam]

You just want to have the exact same custom made hat that a lounger on here has, that was made by a custom hatter on here ... but you want someone other than the person that created it in the first place to make it for you.... is that right? [huh]

If you want it so badly then go ahead ... we won't judge you but why not ask the hatter that already made one make it for you?



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Now playing: Sarah Vaughan - Misty
via FoxyTunes

 

[johnnycanuck]

I cant see a problem asking for a reproduction on a custom hat, just make sure its from the same vendor. Keep in mind over time the hat will change shape and colour naturally with wear. I know I have tweeked my hats I have got from Art to the point they almost don't look like the same hat I bought.



An interesting point: we don't have a section designated to movie/TV/ hats and their vendors. Like Filmjackets.com does. Sometimes it would be good to know who made the hat for Watchman, or Australia. know what I mean?



Johnny

 

[Daoud]

"Ethical"? That's a bit overblown for speaking about hats. Next thing we know someone will be asking if it violates the Geneva Convention.

There's no legal protection. Garment design is exempted from copyright protection. I suppose someone could try for a design patent, but I'm sure it's never happened.

There are only so many ways to make a hat. You can't start carving out areas that are protected or you'd be left with nothing. I'm sure whatever that hat is, it's been done before many times.

Ethics as applied to hats may be coming it a little high, certainly.
On the other hand, legal and ethical are two different things, are they not?