Confounded by sizing

[greenc]

Afternoon Everyone,

Hope you're all happy and enjoying a good weekend. So I've gotta say that I'm not too proud to admit that I'm absolutely confounded by sizing for leather jackets.

Enclosed are photos of me wearing two of my jackets, a size Small Thedi CR in Italian horsehide (and I mention that only because it's quite pliable and soft, between 1 and 1.3 mm), and a size 36 Y2 HR-55 D-pocket in Vintage Horse.

Measurements follow:

Me
Shoulder - 17-inches
P2P - 19-inches

Thedi
Shoulder - approximately 17.25-inch across the back (43.8 cm)
P2P - approximately 19.25-inches (49 cm)
Sleeve - 24-inches (61 cm)

Y2
Shoulder - approximately 16.25-inch (41.2 cm)
P2P - approximately 19.25-inches (49 cm)
Sleeve - 23-inches (58.4 cm)

The Y2 is admittedly tight in the chest when zipped and the sleeves are a touch short, however, I kinda dig the slightly too-short sleeve look every now and then. I think I look like Johnny, the piano player from the animated movie Sing, but again I do dig the tight fit.

I bought them both preowned and the measurements were off on the Y2. I was told 17 shoulder and 19.8 P2P, which isn't the case. That said, I got such a fantastic deal on the Y2 that I'm keeping it and will just wear and enjoy it. Maybe size up to a 38 at some point.

My conundrum stems from the fact that the measurements across the chest are basically the same, but the Thedi can zip up fine, while the Y2 is too tight. I understand that patterns are different and that the Y2 has probably higher armholes, and the extra flap of leather that has to fit under the zipper but I still don't get it.

I understand that if my chest is 19-inches then I need a jacket with a P2P larger than that, but I'm still confused.

I only wear my jackets with a t-shirt and on the snug side as a matter of personal preference but I think the shoulder seams are hitting me in the same spot despite the difference of an inch in the shoulder measurements.

Sigh. I don't want to be confused and I just wanna be able to contemplate a jacket to see if it will fit but I'm acutely aware that the size tags (36, 38, 40, etc) really aren't applicable and that it's the physical measurements that count - but my measurements are both different and the same between my two jackets and the shoulders seem similar.

I like my shoulder seams to line up with the natural break in the shoulder, ie at the joint where the shoulder and the arm meet. If you hold your arm out to the side parallel to the ground and with your other hand put your index finger in the divet created by the muscles there, and then put your arm down by your side again while leaving your finger in the same spot, that's the natural break, no?

I know there are lots of folks that prefer the shoulder seam to land more on the head of the shoulder but that doesn't look good on me - I feel like the jacket is artificially making my shoulders look bigger than they are, which I don't prefer. Still there are other forum members that seem to have their seams land similar to mine.

I tried on a Vanson CR labeled M with 18-inch shoulders and it looks ridiculous on me.

What I'm asking is how people size up jackets that they're not able to try on prior to making a purchase - those pieces bought online.

I have a LW Double Rider that I knew was too small for me when I bought it, it was a gift for someone else, but I put it on just the same just for fun. It's labeled a 38 and while the shoulders were still weirdly a tight fit the arms were only 22-inches long - it was part of an order for the Japanese market but I still think the sleeves should be longer than that on a 38.

Surely I'm not the only one that goes through this - the numbers don't lie, except for when they do. If ya'll can please help me understand your methods or the proper way to measure I'd be grateful, thank you all very much. Enjoy your Sunday, looking forward to your thoughts.

Chris

 

[ProteinNerd]

I used to be obsessed with finding the "perfect" measurements but as you've discovered, different patterns can make jackets fit differently even with the same measurements.

A half inch difference isn't going to make any realistic difference in how a jacket fits when worn out in the wild and nobody will EVER scrutinize the fit of a jacket as much as you will.

Add the fact, the worst a jacket will ever fit you is when you first get it and thats the time you obsess the most over its fit!

Seeking perfection and not being happy with "just" a great fit will lead to misery in this game imo.

 

[greenc]

I used to be obsessed with finding the "perfect" measurements but as you've discovered, different patterns can make jackets fit differently even with the same measurements.

A half inch difference isn't going to make any realistic difference in how a jacket fits when worn out in the wild and nobody will EVER scrutinize the fit of a jacket as much as you will.

Add the fact, the worst a jacket will ever fit you is when you first get it and thats the time you obsess the most over its fit!

Seeking perfection and not being happy with "just" a great fit will lead to misery in this game imo.

You're absolutely right about that, and no two bodies are the same. Again, I'm 5'11" tall and weigh 153lbs (17 shoulders, 19 P2P) - if you found nine other people my height and weight and lined us all up I think the jackets would fit almost all of us differently.

A 5'11" tall swimmer will have a decidedly different body than a 5'11" tall rugby player, or cyclist, or fencer, or whatever. Some folks like the seams right where the shoulder and arm meet, others further down. Some like to layer a jacket others don't.

Really not big problems if we really take a moment to think about it.

It's just frustrating because while I live in a huge city, I have no firsthand access to Vanson, or Langlitz, or Schott jackets, to say nothing of the Japanese brands, which means I have to buy online but that comes with the fit challenges.

How many Classifieds ads start with "Catch and release..." because the jacket arrived from wherever and despite due diligence and communication and measurements, it didn't work for one reason or another.

I'd happily go the bespoke route but I'm not necessarily looking to spend that kind of money on a single piece.

It is indeed a conundrum.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

Keep in mind, that while we list measurements here like P2P, shoulders and back/sleeve length... there's a myriad of other measurements that the pattern makers consider. These numbers are not the be all and end all to define whether the jacket will work for you or not as the other person mentioned.

And given your chest is 38" (based on your "P2P" of 19) and the P2P of the jackets you're wearing is 19.25", you're playing it really close in terms of chest ease. I won't be surprised to hear that your Thedi must be really tight on you even if you're able to zip it all the way up. That's just 0.5" of ease according to your measurements. (i.e. 0.25" P2P difference X 2). Some makers even quote that as their error tolerance.

It could be that the d-pocket has more significant taper than the thedi CR. Where do you find the most resistance when zipping up on it?

 

[greenc]

Keep in mind, that while we list measurements here like P2P, shoulders and back/sleeve length... there's a myriad of other measurements that the pattern makers consider. These numbers are not the be all and end all to define whether the jacket will work for you or not as the other person mentioned.

And given your chest is 19" and the P2P of the jackets you're wearing is 19.25", you're playing it really close in terms of chest ease. I won't be surprised to hear that your Thedi must be really tight on you even if you're able to zip it all the way up. That's just 0.5" of ease according to your measurements. (i.e. 0.25" P2P difference X 2)

It could be that the d-pocket has more significant taper than the thedi CR. Where do you find the most resistance when zipping up on it?

Oddly the Thedi is fairly comfortable, made all the more so by the two-way zipper - I can zip up from the bottom, which opens it at the waist and makes it fit the chest better.

The D-pocket is just sorta tight from the waist to the chest when zipped up, but I must admit that I quite like how it feels unzipped - the horsehide is no longer as stiff as new and it just feels like a second skin.

I suspect the patterns have something to do with all jackets, and when you add vintage into the mix it will be different still.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

It’s all good… if you’re happy with a jacket that you intend to wear unzipped, just do you and enjoy life

 

[El Marro]

Sigh. I don't want to be confused and I just wanna be able to contemplate a jacket to see if it will fit but I'm acutely aware that the size tags (36, 38, 40, etc) really aren't applicable and that it's the physical measurements that count - but my measurements are both different and the same between my two jackets and the shoulders seem similar.

Stuart from LW wouldn‘t even offer me shoulder measurements because he says they are meaningless. I don’t know if I agree with him, but your recent experience certainly lends credit to his statement. There are a number of factors that determine fit, and P2P and shoulder width don’t tell the whole story.
‘I also think it is harder to get it just right when you are aiming for a very trim fit, there is little room for error.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

Stuart from LW wouldn‘t even offer me shoulder measurements because he says they are meaningless.

maybe he changed his approach, but fwiw, he's shared the measurements with me but still said they're meaningless lol

 

[Aloysius]

I've heard this from many LW customers and admittedly it's one that baffles me a bit because anything with shoulders smaller than my own is unwearable. It's the closest thing to a single definitive cutoff point.

 

[jchance]

For a point of reference, I’m 5’9. My chest has a p2p of 19 and I wear jackets with p2p of at least 20.25-21.75. There would be no way for me to go below 20 under any circumstances.

I don’t know my exact shoulder measurement, but my jackets’ shoulder is in the range of 17-18.75.

Buying online for a jacket with measurements so close to your body’s measurements would surely bring disappointment. And Double-breasted style like the double rider (Y2) is really hard to nail down the fit without trying it on in-person.

 

[texas]

I can give you some insight from being into classic tailoring before getting into workwear. I used to have jackets and trousers made by tailors, & they would often talk through issues and what they would do to improve things. If you have some excess or tightness somewhere a good tailor would point out that it was coming from some other place which isn't intuitive to us. Without working with a material and how it conforms to the body you would never guess)

I think the bottom line with all this is that the measurements can give you a rough guide but that is all. I try and live by a rule to never buy clothes without trying them on in person. It can be a problem especially with Japanese brands where you cant always do that as they are perennially sold out of items, or don't sell certain things in your city or country) In that case sometimes just have to take a risk and make sure they have some refund policy incase it doesnt work out.

 

[greenc]

Thank you everyone, I appreciate you all taking the time to write - and your points are all solid. @El Marro I've spoken with Vanson a few times about fit and they tell me the same thing, that shoulder measurements are irrelevant, which I don't understand. If it doesn't fit the shoulders you'll have severely restricted freedom of movement.

The action-back on the D-pocket allows for a good range, but were it not for that I couldn't reach for things on shelf above my head.

Vanson tells me it's all about the ease through the chest, which they peg at 5-inches. When I asked how that equates to a size 38 they couldn't tell me what the actual chest measurement was on a C2.

@texas I agree with your tailor's thoughts as well - I'm sure there are things happening that change the fit or comfort of a jacket that have little to do with what would be obvious to us.

And you're all correct that buying a jacket with a close fit is tricky when you can't try it on first. I think at some point we all do as much homework as we can and then either make the purchase and hold our breath, or we pass and live to fight another day.

I'm eyeing a Y'2 HR-41 Single Riders, which I think I'll try in 38. Thank you again everyone, much appreciated. Enjoy the rest of the evening.

Chris

 

[Aloysius]

Sorry but before you buy something what on earth do you mean when you say your "PTP measure" is 19? You're not a garment.

 

[JMax]

“Vanson tells me it's all about the ease through the chest, which they peg at 5-inches. When I asked how that equates to a size 38 they couldn't tell me what the actual chest measurement was on a C2.”

Two reasons— Vanson ease is not solely a result of the P2P, which is hard for some to accept (not you). And two, Constantine left Vanson years ago. That bubba knew his stuff.

 

[greenc]

Sorry but before you buy something what on earth do you mean when you say your "PTP measure" is 19? You're not a garment.

What I mean is that I have a 38-inch chest measured across the highest point with a tailor's tape measure. I just divided the number to get P2P of 19-inches, perhaps the wrong way to have expressed it.

 

[vintagewool]

“Vanson tells me it's all about the ease through the chest, which they peg at 5-inches. When I asked how that equates to a size 38 they couldn't tell me what the actual chest measurement was on a C2.”

38+5=43

Do you mean that they are not meeting their own specification?

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

What I mean is that I have a 38-inch chest measured across the highest point with a tailor's tape measure. I just divided the number to get P2P of 19-inches, perhaps the wrong way to have expressed it.

I get what you were going for, but was secretly hoping it was along these lines:

 

[Aloysius]

What I mean is that I have a 38-inch chest measured across the highest point with a tailor's tape measure. I just divided the number to get P2P of 19-inches, perhaps the wrong way to have expressed it.

Highest point? Like under your armpits?

It should be at the widest point, about an inch below that, and not held super tight.

Not sure why you divided your own body measurement though lol. Do you halve your height, waist, and arm length as well?

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

I've heard this from many LW customers and admittedly it's one that baffles me a bit because anything with shoulders smaller than my own is unwearable. It's the closest thing to a single definitive cutoff point.

If you're broad shouldered and have concerns, I would provide him measurements of a jacket I like and ask if he thinks the shoulders would be too restrictive based on that - you just need to feed him some data
I noticed he tends to discount that measurement in particular, but I've found if you do express concerns, he's more than willing to take a further look and if necessary will consult with his machinist

 

[Aloysius]

If you're broad shouldered and have concerns, I would provide him measurements of a jacket I like and ask if he thinks the shoulders would be too restrictive based on that - you just need to feed him some data
I noticed he tends to discount that measurement in particular, but I've found if you do express concerns, he's more than willing to take a further look and if necessary will consult with his machinist

I don't have unusually broad shoulders but anything narrower than my shoulder width is constricting. (This is a principle in tailoring, too, that something can be bigger than the shoulder but not smaller.)