Cleavage

[Lady Day]

I don't think that women liking or not liking cleavage on display has anything to do with what men think particularly in this day and age - for a lot of women it's the time and place aspect of it...There is a dress code that should be adhered to when going to certain functions - look at the fuss in the press about some of the ensembles worn to the races during the week.....

Good points.

Since people are using the Jayne v Sophia argument, Im puzzled as to why everyone thinks Sophia is the one being negative?Did anyone care to to thin that Jayne was subjecting herself and perhaps she could have been more considerate with reactions to others around her, or was it just the 'she has a right and who cares what others think', mantra that made it alright?

LD

 

[Viola]

It is more Sofia looks sulky and jealous. Jayne looks happy and luminous. If Sofia looked more bemused "can you BELIEVE it" that would be more attractive to me.

I don't see a thing inconsiderate about what Jayne's wearing. She's not wearing red to a funeral for goodness's sake. They're both wearing clothes that look "after five" - and one is wearing a sour expression.

 

[Lady Day]

Oh, so were judging on looks now? So acceptance of whatever someone wears is just peachy keen, but the reaction worn by the other person can be judged?

Okay, Im just trying to understand the double standard here.

LD

 

[LizzieMaine]

A bit of context might help here -- the picture was taken in April 1957 at a publicity luncheon where Mansfield and Loren were dining with actor Clifton Webb. Seconds before the photo was taken, Mansfield had leaned over the table and "accidentally" allowed one of her breasts to spill out of the front of the dress, exposing the nipple and causing the prim-and-proper Webb to react with considerable embarassment. I say "accidentally" because there's always been talk that the incident was suggested by Mansfield's publicist as a way of ensuring that she would receive maximum attention from the reporters present.

All that being the case, might not Loren be upset as much at being upstaged in front of the press and sympathetic to Webb's embarassment as anything else?

Show biz publicity stunts are rarely held to a very high standard, but this one was gauche under anybody's standards.

 

[Lareesie Ladavi]

I don't mind taking a peek at another woman's bust. Then again I've had a faiblesse for the 1800th century since I was a teen...

Cherry, I'm glad you posted that. I think women do can do the cleavage thing tastefully. I have victorian/edwardian (to name just a couple) dresses that show a little cleavage and they're beautiful.

Personally, when I'm out and about (working or errands) I always dress busniness. Not much on cleavage showing, myself. I think it's because when I notice other women that do, I feel like their boobs are staring me in the face, while I'm speaking to them. lol

Night is whole other ball park, I like to skank-it-up. I usually do have cleavage going on. Sometimes it's more tasteful and sometimes not so much.


A side note: Maybe Jayne farted, thus the "look". hehe

When I was in high school, I was a thin and chesty girl...(well, chesty for the day. Now, young kids believe that implants are what is acceptable) and I was somewhat ashamed. I used my scoliosis to my advantage, by hunching my shoulders foward.

After having my son, I gained weight and so did my boobs. I HATED how big they got! Now that I've lost the weight, I feel the war at hiding is over, but I wish I could get a little extra help at plumping them up across the top, if you catch my drift.

JUst a side note, reguarding Jayne and Sophia... Maybe Jayne farted, thus, Sophia's expression. heh

 

[Lillemor]

On the Sophia Jayne photo - I'm not happy about one's actions and I'm not happy with another one's reaction. In Sophia's place, I wouldn't have reacted at all. I would've looked straight ahead and smiled.

Whether I judge cleavages as appropriate or not will very much depend on the context and how much bare flesh is revealed in the cleavage. Dresses from historical eras where most women nearly always or as the norm showed cleavage are beautiful and I think it's tasteful in that context.

I also realize that for some women, flattering their feminine shape and avoiding showing any cleavage will be near impossible unless they can find a vintage garment in the right cut and size for them or can afford to have something tailored to drape over their busts in a flattering way.

At 4'10"ft, avoiding the tent or Michellin man look without showing any cleavage when I was a size 16/18, would've been mission impossible. My style was more romantic gothic and not golden era retro as now so I just wasn't focused on cleavage concealment.

There were times when I really thought there was no cleavage on show but I only realized so later when a taller person had taken a photo of me >>> usually my mother.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

What's weird about this thread to me is the real venom with which cleavage is being attacked. At work, ok, put 'em away. But other times, as long as your nipple is not anywhere near in danger of popping out, what's the problem? Some of us can't wear anything other than turtlenecks without risking being branded vulgar, apparently!

 

[Lillemor]

Am I just not understanding the definition of cleavage? I didn't think it had anything to do with whether you can see the shape of breasts under fabric or not. I thought it strictly meant flesh sticking up above the fabric and usually squeezed together.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Am I just not understanding the definition of cleavage? I didn't think it had anything to do with whether you can see the shape of breasts under fabric or not. I thought it strictly meant flesh sticking up above the fabric and usually squeezed together.

The latter is the definition I think most people would use.

I might also remind everyone that the main point of the thread, which is in danger of being lost in all the ancillary talk, is cleavage in terms of vintage wear -- how it was done or not done in the Era, not how it's done or not done today. All the oh-look-what-they-did-in-the-eighteenth-century stuff is also irrelevant to that discussion.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

The latter is the definition I think most people would use.

I might also remind everyone that the main point of the thread, which is in danger of being lost in all the ancillary talk, is cleavage in terms of vintage wear -- how it was done or not done in the Era, not how it's done or not done today. All the oh-look-what-they-did-in-the-eighteenth-century stuff is also irrelevant to that discussion.

Not really, though...
"What Im looking for is a culmination of thoughts on addressing cleavage in your vintage wear and how, if you go to a formal event do you show cleavage, or go backless, which Ive always felt was the cleavage of yesteryear"

 

[LizzieMaine]

Not really, though...
"What Im looking for is a culmination of thoughts on addressing cleavage in your vintage wear and how, if you go to a formal event do you show cleavage, or go backless, which Ive always felt was the cleavage of yesteryear"

Point taken. So then, do we modify our vintage wear to show cleavage?

 

[Paisley]

A bit of context might help here -- the picture was taken in April 1957 at a publicity luncheon where Mansfield and Loren were dining with actor Clifton Webb. Seconds before the photo was taken, Mansfield had leaned over the table and "accidentally" allowed one of her breasts to spill out of the front of the dress, exposing the nipple and causing the prim-and-proper Webb to react with considerable embarassment. I say "accidentally" because there's always been talk that the incident was suggested by Mansfield's publicist as a way of ensuring that she would receive maximum attention from the reporters present.

I've always thought that in that photo, Mansfield looked like she was one sneeze or deep breath or slap on the back away from popping out of her dress.

There's a difference between tolerance and acceptance. Mansfield was evidently free to wear a dress that revealed more than it covered. That's tolerance. And Loren was free to be horrified by it. What's that saying--"you can't please everyone"?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I've always thought that in that photo, Mansfield looked like she was one sneeze or deep breath or slap on the back away from popping out of her dress.

There's a difference between tolerance and acceptance. Mansfield was evidently free to wear a dress that revealed more than it covered. That's tolerance. And Loren was free to be horrified by it. What's that saying--"you can't please everyone"?

I've always thought Clifton Webb had the best response: after recovering from his embarassment, he looked up and said "If you PLEASE, Miss Mansfield! We're WINE DRINKERS at this table!"

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Point taken. So then, do we modify our vintage wear to show cleavage?

I don't. But I tend to show a bit of cleavage when wearing unmodified vintage. See: sundresses, wrap dresses, strapless dresses. Cleavage doesn't arise for the small busted in these kinds of dresses, but for those of us who are large busted, often it does. Even with a regular ol' full coverage bra. I mean, if I wore those dresses with a push up, it would be a lot more boob, but even a regular bra does it.

I've though about getting a reduction, but [huh]

 

[Paisley]

I've always thought Clifton Webb had the best response: after recovering from his embarassment, he looked up and said "If you PLEASE, Miss Mansfield! We're WINE DRINKERS at this table!"

lol You don't hear repartee like that anymore.

 

[JupitersDarling]

Point taken. So then, do we modify our vintage wear to show cleavage?

The handful of vintage I have is quite covered in terms of necklines esp. compared to some of my modern knit tops despite having a largish bust. I wouldn't go looking for a revealing dress (unless it found me & looked smashing) or alter it to show- esp. since I don't do much/any 'after 5'.

I've been playing with patterns lately and had to take the square open neckline of a 1954 lutterloh evening dress bodice up an inch or so to repurpose it for a casual summer dress bodice. It was so low and wide at the lower edge it showed the top & straps of my bra as well as the 'valley.' I guess they'd have had to wear a merry widow & half-slip with that style in the 50s, and it would definitely have revealed a bit esp. if you were busty.

 

[Viola]

Oh, so were judging on looks now? So acceptance of whatever someone wears is just peachy keen, but the reaction worn by the other person can be judged?

Okay, Im just trying to understand the double standard here.

LD

I'm just saying, by my standards, Sofia acted worse than Jayne. It's perfectly acceptable to convey polite disbelief, (and I think as far as comments afterwards something along a dry "well, I certainly couldn't wear such a thing" would have been far more ladylike and imply the same sentiment in a more gentle, classy way) without letting someone else's questionable taste in dressing lead to your own questionable actions.

I'm just going by the standard of, if I must regretfully be caught for posterity in one of those two roles; I would rather be underdressed than needlessly unpleasant. It's less ladylike, IMO.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Here's a good example of how cleavage was handled of in the late fifties -- note the flower pinned at the strategic point of Marilyn's dress here. It's more about the suggestion of exposure than actual exposure.

This was a style popularized a few years earlier by Faye Emerson, a television personality whose name became synonymous with plunging necklines around 1950. She'd use flowers, large brooches, and similar obscuring devices to avoid running afoul of the TV censors.

(This is my favorite pic of Miss Monroe, by the way. She's kicking off a soccer game at Ebbets Field in Brooklyn.)

 

[Viola]

That is a great picture and now I'm going to have to look for more broaches and flower pins.

 

[Miss 1929]

Albeit, not like Jayne

Well, she's about a 34 B at that time of her life, and Jayne was more like 44 EEE. Not in the same league at all.

And they look pushed down and out because she is completely braless, as was normal in the early 30s.

Note though that this is an EVENING GOWN, and Pre-Code - a few years later and Joan would not be allowed to show that on the silver screen. Cleavage was verboten under the Hayes Code.