Changes in Attitude in Marriage & Divorce from the Golden Era to Now.

[Foofoogal]

Office affairs and the like result a lot of times from people working together in close proximity.

Yes, and no dirty laundry, crying kids, car breakdowns, all dressed up. Like I said. It is the soap opera generation.
I do find the birth control/hormones link interesting though and affairs. Makes alot of sense.
One day people will actually understand hormones and the part they play in life.
fftopic: I personally think alot of illnesses and such is the acid in our bodies. Like a swimming pool someone needs to come up with a kit.
Not that I am excusing at all.

 

[John in Covina]

Yes, and no dirty laundry, crying kids, car breakdowns, all dressed up. Like I said. It is the soap opera generation.
I do find the birth control/hormones link interesting though and affairs. Makes alot of sense.
One day people will actually understand hormones and the part they play in life.
fftopic: I personally think alot of illnesses and such is the acid in our bodies. Like a swimming pool someone needs to come up with a kit.
Not that I am excusing at all.

But office affairs come in with having a co-ed office, it's not a generational thing it's a man - woman thing. From before WWII, into the 50's on on it was and is rampant.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think generational expectations have a lot to do with the differing attitudes toward divorce, as much if not more than the easing of laws, sexual attitudes, etc. People didn't go into marriage expecting a lifetime of passion, as much as they expected a lifetime of stability -- the reasons for this can be debated endlessly, but the fact remains.

I look at my grandparents as an example of this. They were married for forty-seven years, and took "till death us do part" as seriously as any committment a person could make. The idea that they could someday walk away from each other and move on to someone more exciting would never have occured to them -- it simply wasn't part of the culture they were raised in.

They'd fight and squabble and yell, and I never saw them as much as hold hands, let alone kiss or call each other by squishy romantic nicknames (she routinely called him "old goat," and he called her "old bag"), and for the last twenty-five years of their marriage they slept in separate rooms because his coughing kept her awake nights -- but there's no question in my mind that they loved each other in a way that utterly doesn't fit the modern conception of what marriage is supposed to be. But it was the kind of relationship that demands a sort of -- ripening -- that so many modern disposable marriages are never allowed to attain. And for what it's worth, I think that's very sad. Especially since I'm someone who got walked out on for just such modern reasons.

 

[Foofoogal]

But it was the kind of relationship that demands a sort of -- ripening -- that so many modern disposable marriages are never allowed to attain. And for what it's worth, I think that's very sad. Especially since I'm someone who got walked out on for just such modern reasons.

I am sorry Lizzie but it is so true. A 2 year marriage, a 10 year marriage, a 25 year marriage and etc. are all so different. I was taught that from a book when I was 16 in Home Economics. Maybe this is the problem.
My dad and mama fought alot and you would think they hated each other, but they also kissed alot in front of us children and were touchy feely but respectful about it. This was their relationship. After 46 years mom died and dad died 3 years later as much from wanting to be with her as his sickness.
My FIL and MIL were married as long and never raised their voice to each other. They had silent treatment down to an art. I never saw them even hug. After he medically retired she never had to do a thing after that. He cooked all the meals. He treated her like a queen. I reap the benefits from this.
This is why I have said before never, ever get into anyone elses marriage. Ever. Noone but the 2 and God know what goes on behind closed doors.
--------------
I will say though being married for so long is unique in todays society but does have its rewards. I know someone who's husband ran away with a younger woman after 56 years. The lady who was left said the new lady bought him new shirts. [huh]
I blame it on the new ideas about marriage and soap operas.

 

[John in Covina]

Marrige has special dynamics that are not present in other relationships. It often suffers or soars on the ability of the two to communicate. Long term marriges that break up seem to contain an element of one of the two having some type of longterm suffering and then reaching a point of no return or staw that broke the camels back.

I always think of the Dramarama song "Anything, Anything" in this context of communication.

Anything, Anything lyrics:
OK what is it tonight?
please just tell me what the hell is wrong,
Do you want to eat, do you want to sleep, do you want to drown?
Just settle down, settle down, settle down...
I'll give you candy, give you diamonds, give you pills,
Give you anything you want, hundred dollar bills,
I'll even let you watch the shows you want to see,
Just marry me, marry me, marry me...

I'm so sick of you tonight,
You never stay awake when I get home,
Is something wrong with me, something wrong with you?
I really wish I knew, wish I knew, wish I knew...
I give you candy, give you diamonds, give you pills,
I give you anything you want, hundred dollar bills,
I even let you watch the shows you want to see,
Because you married me, married me, married me...
Married me, married me, married me...

I was young I learned a game,
that love and happiness were the same,
And now I'm older and I don't play,
I found out the hardest way,
I got wasted, she got mad, called me names and she called her dad,
He got crazy and I did too, wondering what I did to you.
I gave you candy, gave you diamonds, gave you pills,
I gave you anything you want, hundred dollar bills,
i even let you hear the songs i wanna sing
I'll give you anything, anything, anything...
I'll give you anything, anything, anything...
I'll give you anything, anything, anything...
Anything...
Anything...
Anything...

 

[VintageRed]

Awww John, that's kinda' sad!


Miss Lizzie, I also have grandparents that have been married forever and a day. Almost 70 some odd years now. My grandfather is harder and harder to care for due to health conditions and my grandmother, other than looking tired, you'd never know her real age. She looks amazing. She never complains about her workload or about any of Papa's ailments. She just keeps on taking care of him, and trying to love him despite his rather gruff demeanor. They said vows, they meant them. There was/is no alternative.

My hubby and I have been married 10 years now, and considering I think we're still pretty young, that's a darn long time by today's standards. We come from the same value system however, took marital counseling classes with clergy prior to getting married, had lengthy conversations about our respective 5, 10, 25 year plans, etc. He's a sailor. At the most, we've spent an entire year apart, with a baby too boot. At the best, he comes home daily now and is stationed on land for another year. It has done wonders for the kids and even my at first doubtful self. I'm quite independent and never minded him being gone on his trips all that much. But it's a whole dif't ball game for the kids. The year we spent apart was a rough one on the back end. We drifted apart more than we realized. It caused some strife, but we figured it out, found the communication breakdown, repaired the line and did our hardest to be better for it further on down the road.

I wouldn't have it any other way. There's days when he drives me to my very last vestige of patience, and days when he probably wishes he was still a swinging bachelor. But the way we see it, life isn't a bowl of pitted cherries, we still think the good way outweighs the bad and above all else, we're best of friends. Our opinions matter to each other. We have common interests and goals. These things are all important in creating a strong relationship.

Not that I'm holding myself up as a paragon of the institution of marriage. However, I certainly think there's far too many modern marriages that don't have any of those ingredients, and they're doomed from the start.

I was once told a story about an elderly couple that were happily renewing their vows after 60 some odd years of marriage. The priest gave them a brief introduction and before beginning the ceremony asked what he thought the entire crowd wanted to know: What was the secret of their marriage and longevity. Had they ever had a point where they considered divorce?

They both stopped and looked at one another, smiled and the husband said,
"Divorce? No."

The wife replied with a prompt, "Murder? Yes."

We try to remember that.



Cheers,

~Red

 

[reetpleat]

From the perspective of this 39-year-old, the unhappily married people I know have probably had a better life together than they would have had separately. I don't suggest that no marriages should end. I know that some are absolutely untenable. Nor do I suggest extremely strict divorce laws. In the past, people simply bought or cheated their way out, or remained chained to a destructive spouse. I only suggest that people take the long view and consider a couple of experiences from my family.

Some of my brothers and sisters and I used to ask my parents, "Why don't you two get a divorce?" Heaven knows it was miserable listening to their constant bickering. Then there were the money wars and other problems. If that marriage were a horse, you'd shoot it.

Yet they're still married. My father visits my mother every day in the nursing home where she is recovering from surgery and a stroke; he'll take care of her when she comes home. If not for him, she'd be in her grave. Good thing they didn't shoot that nag of a marriage.

My brother was late to his own wedding. A few years later, he was ready to leave his wife when she decided to go to work; on mom's advice, he decided to stick with the marriage, though. Many years later, his wife took care of him through a long illness that ended last year. They were hardly the ideal couple, but I think they too were better off married than divorced.

My two sisters? Divorced six times between them. At least four times for dumb reasons. They didn't seem any happier for the experience. Don't most married people feel like throwing in the towel at some time?

Well, it seems that the question may not have been "why don't you get a divorce," but, "why don't you stop bickering?" i think iti s terrible to subject children to that. and maybe they did love each other and were happy bickering. But they should have stopped. That is very different from people who are truly unhappy in their relationship. If they can't figure out how to be happy, then they should split, in my opinion. It is a terrible example to set for children that it is okay to spend your life unhappy, miserable etc. I will never subject my children to that. If you are unhappy, you should do whatever is neccessery to be happy. If that means changing your behavior or attitudes so you can stay in a marriage, that would be the best choice. And the day I decide that a marriage is simply so I will have someone to take care of me when I am old and sick, just shoot me. Romantic that I am.

 

[reetpleat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090114/hl_nm/us_estrogen_affairs

maybe it is the medical part like Doran suggested. [huh]
It also may be due to a story I saw today but cannot find about office affairs that 1 in 4 people have them. Not exactly healthy for a long term marriage.

Who is to say that office affairs don't provide the intimate outlets people are lacking in their marriages. Not ideal, but I would guess at least a certain percentage of them have saved marriages. Just to be contrarian.

 

[Paisley]

If you are unhappy, you should do whatever is neccessery to be happy.

Often, life isn't a choice between being happy or unhappy, but making difficult choices that cannot make everybody happy.

I do agree that people shouldn't argue in front of their children, or discuss marital problems with them. I know way too much about my parents' marriage.

 

[Foofoogal]

Who is to say

I guess for discussion purposes the who is the countless people who get hurt in the process.
Spouses, children, even coworkers I would presume.
I cannot possibly see how it would save a marriage and stats tell this.
Self control is what IMHO seperates us from the animal kingdom.
Is there temptation out there and is it very real. Of course.
I just do not think it is worth it. Personally I know me pretty good and sooner or later I would not only have distaste for myself but for the other person as well.
I am sure people see it differently and like I said I know men and know how they think.
Nothing really new there in how they seperate the differences.
There is still a double standard and always will be.
I know a guy who honestly has traded up about every 10 years leaving a trail of tears behind him but it has now caught up with him. There is always a payday. Always.
You play, you pay. Golden Rule, Karma, Goes Around, Comes Around. Whatever.

 

[Mike1939]

Should we rename this thread, Marriage and Divorce from the Golden Era to present?

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

All the high divorce rate tells me is that it's a bad idea to get married.

 

[reetpleat]

Often, life isn't a choice between being happy or unhappy, but making difficult choices that cannot make everybody happy.

I do agree that people shouldn't argue in front of their children, or discuss marital problems with them. I know way too much about my parents' marriage.

I categorically reject that notion. To me, life is all about being happy. Certainly, happiness is more of a choice than people realize. A choice to put yourself in good circumstances, and a choice to be happy no matter the circumstances. Not contradictory elements either.

As for making other people happy, I think we worry about that far too much. I am trying to worry about what I think is the right thing to do. And if it makes someone happy, great. If it makes them unhappy, then that is their problem. But i stress, the right thing to do.

I will never stay in a marriage in which I am unhappy. I will either leave or figure out or decide how to be happy in it. I will not spend the rest of my life bickering and fighting. But in all honesty, that makes some people happy because it is familiar. Probably because their parents taught them by example.

 

[reetpleat]

I guess for discussion purposes the who is the countless people who get hurt in the process.
Spouses, children, even coworkers I would presume.
I cannot possibly see how it would save a marriage and stats tell this.
Self control is what IMHO seperates us from the animal kingdom.
Is there temptation out there and is it very real. Of course.
I just do not think it is worth it. Personally I know me pretty good and sooner or later I would not only have distaste for myself but for the other person as well.
I am sure people see it differently and like I said I know men and know how they think.
Nothing really new there in how they seperate the differences.
There is still a double standard and always will be.
I know a guy who honestly has traded up about every 10 years leaving a trail of tears behind him but it has now caught up with him. There is always a payday. Always.
You play, you pay. Golden Rule, Karma, Goes Around, Comes Around. Whatever.

Affairs are not about lust or opportunity. They are about people not getting what they need at home. many marriages lose intimacy, and people turn to wher ethey can get it. Not the best choice, I suppose.

 

[reetpleat]

All the high divorce rate tells me is that it's a bad idea to get married.

the leading cause of divorce; marriage.

 

[Foofoogal]

Affairs are not about lust or opportunity. They are about people not getting what they need at home. many marriages lose intimacy, and people turn to wher ethey can get it. Not the best choice, I suppose.

I cannot leave it with my previous answer after this statement.
I am very sorry when peoples expectations of marriage do not happen or when they are miserable. I do not condone staying with an alcoholic or drug addict after trying forever to get them help as they have to help themselves, I do not condone being a punching bag for anyone, and I do not condone affairs.
When it reaches that point something has to break.
It is easy when there are no children involved. Much harder then.
I once had a woman tell me she looked daily in the Bible to find an out. The out is infidelity but I don't think God intended for this. I will not get too off track but prayer does change things alot of the times.
What to do about your ? is just to say if this happens one must be ready for the consequences. In fits of passion many people end up in jail or dead.
An adult has to think of these possibilities.
Your post makes me sad as I know it is complicated.

 

[reetpleat]

I cannot leave it with my previous answer after this statement.
I am very sorry when peoples expectations of marriage do not happen or when they are miserable. I do not condone staying with an alcoholic or drug addict after trying forever to get them help as they have to help themselves, I do not condone being a punching bag for anyone, and I do not condone affairs.
When it reaches that point something has to break.
It is easy when there are no children involved. Much harder then.
I once had a woman tell me she looked daily in the Bible to find an out. The out is infidelity but I don't think God intended for this. I will not get too off track but prayer does change things alot of the times.
What to do about your ? is just to say if this happens one must be ready for the consequences. In fits of passion many people end up in jail or dead.
An adult has to think of these possibilities.
Your post makes me sad as I know it is complicated.

Lest you think I am talking about myself, I am single and loving it. And I think, have only cheated on any girlfriend once in my life, and that was a legal gray period.

 

[Dr Doran]

My parents (Dad born in 1921, Mom in 1930, hence my interest in the Era) got married in 1956 and are still relatively happy. They used to be Catholic (they quit shortly after I quit for the first time; but unlike me, they stayed quit; I went back in for several years, then quit for good 2.5 years ago) and in their world-view, divorce was not exactly evil, it was just ... tacky and stupid. They came from the attitude that everyone in the world has always had except privileged people: namely, marriage existed for the stable production of children and, like most other choices in life, it was chosen largely for the purpose of security since up until about two generations ago in the Western world (and still presently in most of the rest of the world), personal survival and success was so unsure that stability WAS happiness.

In privileged places and times, and among mainly the privileged in the past, people think of happiness very differently: they frequently ask themselves if their partner is truly a good match (one of the biggest, most constant underlying questions on this ENTIRE forum over the years has been "does it matter if your partner is VINTAGE?"). Basic security and stability are thought of as pretty much guaranteed.

The previous situation (the "vintage situation" for most of settled human history) was more dire. I don't think that people would be so inclined to ask more subtle questions about their spouses' suitability to themselves if not for the surplus resources that are present to be used now.

My MIL and FIL are horrible as a couple. She admires him because he knows how to make money and she digs that he is a risk taker, but he is a raging alcoholic who does not understand boundaries (sorry if that word is gratingly trendy, but it applies here) and is in fact the most annoying person I have ever met. They have discussed divorce many times over the years, and have been married 35 years, but they come from a more traditional culture than this one and they will probably stay together forever. I don't really know what is right or wrong, although I am with Foo Foo that staying with an alcoholic who keeps drinking seems like a bad idea to me.

I agree with those of you who point out that marriage is not, and never was, supposed to be 100% fun, and I think that diapers and fatigue are pretty un-fun. But I can also understand people who want happiness of a more exciting kind than stability.

As to how this relates to how vintage I am and whether I walk the walk: I don't think I'll get divorced, so I am more vintage than not as far as that goes. It would make me happier if my wife liked vintage more (she likes it OK), enjoyed scary movies, and had more weird and interesting hobbies (not everyone can be Amelie, I guess). But the idea of leaving her when we have a 2 year old child, and testing my luck with untried other women seems pretty bizarre to me. I can still have female friends, and I have a lot of friends and deeply enjoy my friendships, and I can still reminisce about my days as a bachelor if I ever feel extremely boxed in. Which seems to be the greatest risk in marriage nowadays with this fast-moving world full of exciting and fantastical images of the glamorous lives of others and the promise that you too can be like them.

 

[Flivver]

My parents were married for 63 years and, as mentioned by others here, divorce wasn't even in their vocabulary. They meant it when they said "till death do you part". My Mom cared for my Dad at home for the last four years of his life when he was suffering from spinal stenosis. Never once did she complain about it.

Sadly, my Mom only lasted 4 months after my Dad died. I think that took away her will to live.

It's sad that many people today don't take the marriage vows so seriously. I've watched several of my friends get divorced and have seen the pain it has caused. But, I'm afraid that the concept of "marriage for life" has gone with the Golden Era. Too often, today, people take the easiest path in life...not always the best path.

 

[just_me]

It's sad that many people today don't take the marriage vows so seriously. I've watched several of my friends get divorced and have seen the pain it has caused. But, I'm afraid that the concept of "marriage for life" has gone with the Golden Era. Too often, today, people take the easiest path in life...not always the best path.

Why is staying in a bad marriage the best path?