"Can streetcars save America's cities?" ~ cnn.com

[John in Covina]

I can't remember where it was but I have ridden some trolley that had rubber on the wheels so it wasn't steel wheels on a steel rail and it was a lot quieter.

 

[John in Covina]

How many cities have an "L" train an elevated train line so it doesn't interfere with traffic?

(DOH! The Simpson's "Monorail" episode just popped into my head! If you haven't seen it, it is loosely based on the musical "The Music Man!))

 

[Widebrim]

If we had true street cars here the slaughter would be unimaginable. In Southern California courts also tend to favor the IQ challenged, there would be class action suits against the trolley systems with in days of opening.

Both very likely so...lol (Sorry for the laughing smiley.)

 

[RadioWave]

Dern automobiles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal Plattsburgh's yet another place that (from what I've heard) still has the trolley line beneath the asphalt. It's most surely a wonderful endeavor, but, in agreeance with John, it would be depressing to see how quickly other people ruin it for everyone else.

 

[John in Covina]

I love train and trolleys but from what I have heard there are no rail systems in the US that operate in the black on their own. They all need to be subsidized to one degree or another.

Here in LA for me it always seems that the light rail starts someplace I am not and goes to someplace I don't need to go. In Copiague on Long Island we used the LIRR to go to NYC fairly often and in NYC made use of the subway system too, there it seemed to work well.

Bluestone120- I once took the Amtrak from NYC to go to SUNY Plattsburgh to get back to college there after the winter break. The train was late by about an hour due to snow on the tracks but it was a lot better than taking the bus because you could get up and walk around on a train.

 

[CharlieB]

I konw the title of this thread mentions cities, but what about sub-urban and rural areas? Where I live (the Cumberland Valley of South-Central PA) had, until the early 20th century a very large system of trollies connecting many of the small towns and villages. The automobile and highways put an end to this.

One big issue now is people's home location in relation to where they work. I only lieve 6.5 miles from my office, but cannot imagine how I could use light rail to get there and back, just from the logistics of it all. Really a shame.

 

[Fletch]

Thanks for the link, Smithy. Thinking about NYC’s current automobile culture, I don’t have high hopes for a successful revival for trams/streetcars.

I know many people ride the buses and subways, and each has their pluses and minuses.
Buses are above ground, a big plus for me. But they are subject to the same horrendous street traffic. Trains run underground, something I was never very thrilled with, but are not subject to street traffic.

Hence, the positives for trams. Above ground – easier to get to, and you cant get stuck in a tunnel!!! If theres a problem, you just get off. Biiig plus in my book.

If the cars can somehow keep out of the tram lanes, and abide by the rules in the link you supplied, Smithy, theyre much quicker than buses. However, NYC has never struck me as the type of place that will abide by rules like that to allow such a system to work. Drivers here do just about everything they can, short of driving in the sidewalk, to shorten the time of a trip.

Then again, if an effectively laid out tram system was introduced here that actually worked the way it is supposed to, maybe less people would drive into the city. One of the reasons I drive into the city is not because I dint like the LIRR. The railroad is quick and virtually pain-free. Its because that getting around, once in the city, is so time consuming. Buses take forever, and I don’t like being on a train underground for so long.

New York is nobody's model for public transit. It's a better argument against it than for it, because no other place is like New York. We Americans tend to either/or thinking, and the transit options that seem most viable to us are mixed modes for the dense northeast vs. car and limited bus for everywhere else.

 

[John in Covina]

Rail is designed to go from a center of commerce or residency to another center. Over time the viability of those centers can change so that they become more significant or much, much less so. It has created a train to nowhere situation in some places. Buses are much easier to re-task.

 

[JimWagner]

I've watched a few documentaries on the end of streetcars here in the US and I don't believe the clock can be set back on this matter. The only way I can see anything at all like a return to streetcars would be in isolated downtown areas and even then only if all automobile and truck traffic was banned completely from those areas.

While you might be able to (attempt) to ban automobile traffic, you'll not be able to ban truck traffic. Businesses in those areas still need deliveries of goods.

A better option in my opinion would be smaller buses running more often for free (to the riders). Or using pre-paid passes. No tracks necessary. Same rules of the road as everyone else.

In Savannah, GA there are trolley shaped buses all over the fairly large old part of town and getting around the narrow streets on them and not having to deal with parking is a treat. You buy a day pass from a handy station and you're on your way. Never more than a 5 minute wait for one.

But, Savannah is small. That wouldn't work in a suburban environment like where I live. The city buses don't even work very well. I've tried to use them and it was always a rather unpleasant, inconvenient, and time consuming operation. They usually don't get me close to places I want to go and take hours to get around instead of minutes.

We're having a light rail system shoved down our throats here and I can easily predict that it will cost many millions, serve very few people in reality, and be a political boondoggle. And pretty much cover the same routes already served by buses that are under utilized.

 

[Fletch]

Improving bus service is practical but usually unpopular, because it serves some of the same underclass as workfare and other not-very-popular but necessary public programs. Too bad, because a well-run and -funded bus service is a boon to all.

 

[John in Covina]

The problem with offering free bus service is it gets abused because there is a lack of value represented to some of the participants, entitlements have become boondogles in the past. (it's the reason in many places all public toilets are pay toilets not because of use but the abuse by some.)

Also it would present a tremendous inducement to many in government to seeking or offering graft and political patronage.

 

[Fletch]

Even making pay bus service more useful and accessible will face opposition, tho the rationale will likely be less than honest. Basically, bus riders are thought of as Not Our Kind of People, but you don't dare say so.

I'm spoiled from being from a college town with broadly demographic bus ridership (students ride free).

 

[scottyrocks]

New York is nobody's model for public transit. It's a better argument against it than for it, because no other place is like New York. We Americans tend to either/or thinking, and the transit options that seem most viable to us are mixed modes for the dense northeast vs. car and limited bus for everywhere else.

I had brought it up because NYC can be horrendously difficult to get around in at times. It is a city, btw, that needs some help, and model or not, I felt it worthy to include in the discussion.

On another note, downtown Brooklyn still has some cobblestone streets with trolley tracks imbedded in them. I can see how trolleys in that relatively small area, sort of a small city in itself, could still benefit from a reinstatement of a trolley system.

 

[Fletch]

I had brought it up because NYC can be horrendously difficult to get around in at times. It is a city, btw, that needs some help, and model or not, I felt it worthy to include in the discussion.

Absolutely, but there are always huge obstacles to meeting needs in NYC. Every part of the existing order, or chaos, benefits someone while inconveniencing someone else.

On another note, downtown Brooklyn still has some cobblestone streets with trolley tracks imbedded in them. I can see how trolleys in that relatively small area, sort of a small city in itself, could still benefit from a reinstatement of a trolley system.

Sure, and again, it's because of those pre-automobile patterns of settlement - centralized, linear, and dense.

 

[LizzieMaine]

On another note, downtown Brooklyn still has some cobblestone streets with trolley tracks imbedded in them. I can see how trolleys in that relatively small area, sort of a small city in itself, could still benefit from a reinstatement of a trolley system.

Maybe Brooklyn residents will be known again as "Trolley Dodgers," like they were a hundred years ago. And what a great name for a baseball team that would be.

 

[scottyrocks]

Maybe Brooklyn residents will be known again as "Trolley Dodgers," like they were a hundred years ago. And what a great name for a baseball team that would be.

If thats the genesis for the return of a baseball team to Brooklyn, then bring it on, I say! Theyll just need a different name this time.

 

[martinsantos]

This comeback would be wonderful. Most of downtowns have chaotic transit; streets not made for automobiles, but for people.

But I think that in several places it won't happen... Modern society has a passion about automobiles; I know some people who can not have food at home - but have a big new car and use it to go just two blocks. Here in São paulo we have 6 cars to 10 habitants. All the logistic if the city is focused in making new ways to the automobiles, nothing about to offer an option.

 

[Story]

It can sound like something out of The Jetsons when President Obama talks about high-speed rail, futuristic airports and nationwide, broadband Internet. One growing part of America's infrastructure, however, has a distinctly 19th-century feel. It's the return of the streetcar.

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/12/133682892/all-american-streetcar-boom-fuels-an-urban-future

 

[brspiritus]

Complete Streets

They're pushing for it here in Jacksonville in order to revitalize downtown but so far JTA has been giving us a deaf ear. They're all fired up with their pet projects, the Outer Beltway and the Bus Rapid Transit. Apparently the outer beltway is a dead issue now, thank God, but they're still pushing for the BRT which noone wants. We've been screaming for streetcars for over a year now citing how much cheaper they are than buses and how towns that have brought them back are revitalizing but to no avail. I get sick of the back pocket politics here in town.

 

[4spurs]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that New Orleans was adding a new streetcar line down Loyola Ave., well it is, and it is also adding another streetcar line down Rampart St. through the Marigny to the Bywater with a spur going down Elysian Fields towards the river. The Rampart St. line will parallel the old Desire streetcar route.

In 2004 New Orleans restored the old Canal St. streetcar line. I remember the city ripping the Canal St. line up 50 years ago and switching over to buses. It only took them 50 years to figure out that it was a mistake. Many of the streetcars that run in New Orleans are vintage cars from the 1920's; all of the St. Charles Ave. cars are. New Orleans has also bought vintage streetcars and streetcar parts from other cities around the world; see the link below for photos.

http://www.oldtrails.com/LightRail/NewOrleans/raillnoh.htm here is a link to a photo showing contemporaty streetcars on Canal St. in New Orleans. The red cars are the Canal St. line and I believe the red cars are from Melbourne. Australia; the green car is the St. Charles Ave. line.

The St. Charles streetcar comes down Carondelet St. and turns right running on Canal St. for one block before turning right again on St. Charles and heading back up St. Charles. That is why in the photo you see both the Canal St. and the St. Charles streetcars.

New Orleans has the oldest continually operating streetcar system in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcars_in_New_Orleans

Will streetcars save the world? I have no idea, but they are more fun to ride than a bus and are making a comeback in New Orleans.