Campaign hat study from "The Wind and The Lion"

[Naphtali]

I will now stray far into Techno-freak Land.

In 1917, the superintendent of Springfield Armory, the government-operated manufactory for the M1903 rifle, wrote a book to disseminate the technology used in the rifle's manufacture. At this time the most modern technology in the world was used to manufacture this machine.

The book has the windy title: United States Rifles and Machine Guns: A Detailed Account of the Methods Used in Manufacturing the Springfield, 1903 Model Service Rifle; Also Descriptions of the Modified Enfield Rifle (by COLVIN, Fred H. & Ethan VIALL).

The original publisher was McGraw-Hill. It was reprinted, I believe by Wolfe Publishing Company in the 1970s. The original book is costly; reprint is affordable.

Fred's book has machinist's inspection drawings for every part of the M1903, every material used, every heat treat and finishing process, every tool used in manufacture, and feeds & speeds used.

It's not for every taste, but for those of you like me, it's orgasmic.

 

[DanielJones]

fftopic: Back in my days as a Marine Sniper, the main weapon I trained and worked with was the variant of the Model 700 varminter .308 caliber. But we had to also train on a variety of other weapons to basically be able to pick up most weapons and do the job we're trained for. This included the '03-A3 Springfield, the M1 Garand, M-14 and several varieties of forign weapons including the Soviet Dragonov. This was back on the late 80's, and the training was fairly intense and made for some deadly men with just about any weapon they could shoot long distance with. One of my favorites was a 1904 Sweedish Mauser with a Unirtle scope. I later years I managed to find one at a local gun shop without a scope. With just the open sites that thing can hit it's target at 300 meters. A very impressive flat trajectory weapon.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Harp]

The Marines managed to rotate M14s back and forth in front line units in the Vietnam War well after the M16 shold have taken over its role. By the wars end, however, they were no longer able to do it.

What you note about the request for a rifle suitable for desert terrain is true of the Army as well. Exercises in Egypt in the 80s demonstrated a need for a rifle that, when you read the request, essentially describes the M14. Due to that, the Army actually rebuilt and designated a group of M14s for use by the "Rapid Deployment Force" in the 80s. However, when the use for those rifles came, they did not issue them out of fears that issuing a rifle to troops who hadn't trained on it would be a bad idea.

However, the M14 never really left the service. It remained a ship board rifle in the Navy, and was commonly issued to both SF troops in the Army and SEALs. Due to the ranges presented in Afghanistan, the Army begain reissuing it there, and now the rifle is quite common in the hands of designated marksmen in the Army and Marines. So, the M14 nearly left service, only to come back in. In boht Army and Marine use, the use by Designated Marksmen is official.

The M16 was issued before adequate testing; combat proved its
bolt carrier group defective and prone to carbon accumulate, for this-
and other reasons-the weapon acquired suspicion and a decided lack
of trust. At 6.5lbs its bantam feather weight paled in comparison to
heavier wooden stock rifles of more proven merit; so the favor shown
the M14 by individual riflemen may help to account its prolonged use
and bolstered reputation. Thompsons were also better for chopping
at close quarter in dense cover. The phase-in of the new-improved
sweet 16 eventuated the removal of the older WWII arms; including
later model M-1 carbines which were tossed to ARVN.

 

[Pat_H]

fftopic: Back in my days as a Marine Sniper, the main weapon I trained and worked with was the variant of the Model 700 varminter .308 caliber. But we had to also train on a variety of other weapons to basically be able to pick up most weapons and do the job we're trained for. This included the '03-A3 Springfield, the M1 Garand, M-14 and several varieties of forign weapons including the Soviet Dragonov. This was back on the late 80's, and the training was fairly intense and made for some deadly men with just about any weapon they could shoot long distance with. One of my favorites was a 1904 Sweedish Mauser with a Unirtle scope. I later years I managed to find one at a local gun shop without a scope. With just the open sites that thing can hit it's target at 300 meters. A very impressive flat trajectory weapon.

Cheers!

Dan

The Swedish Mauser is a fine weapon. Very nice.

 

[deanglen]

Seems to me Mauser, in its many forms and copies, ruled until the Garand.

dean

 

[Harp]

fftopic: Back in my days as a Marine Sniper, the main weapon I trained and worked with was the variant of the Model 700 varminter .308 caliber. But we had to also train on a variety of other weapons to basically be able to pick up most weapons and do the job we're trained for. This included the '03-A3 Springfield, the M1 Garand, M-14 and several varieties of forign weapons including the Soviet Dragonov. This was back on the late 80's, and the training was fairly intense and made for some deadly men with just about any weapon they could shoot long distance with. One of my favorites was a 1904 Sweedish Mauser with a Unirtle scope. I later years I managed to find one at a local gun shop without a scope. With just the open sites that thing can hit it's target at 300 meters. A very impressive flat trajectory weapon.

Cheers!

Dan

...what is the Dragonov's effective range, Dan?

 

[DanielJones]

Sorry about the misspelling. It's actually a 'Dragunov'. Anyway, with standard ammunition it's effective range is about 600 meters (The rifle can accept the older Mosin Nagant M1891/30 cartridge). So, as far as a sniper rifle is concerned that is just ok. But, if you use the specialized ammunition designed for the Dragunov, you effectively extend the 'reach out and touch someone' range out to around 1300± meters, with a muzzle velocity of around 840 meters per second. Not too shabby at that point.

Now the Swedish Mauser is a complete joy even with stock surplus ammunition. Its 6.5x55 mm round basically has a flat trajectory ans on my 1904 m96 minimum sighting is set for 300 meters. It even came with the adjustment chart decal on the stock. I would have loved to get the sniper model from WW I that has the bent bolt handle and a Carl Zeiss scope. But those went for a mint even in the plentiful days of the early 90's. I personally think that it makes a far superior target rifle compared to the '03 Springfield.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Harp]

The Drag has reach.

 

[Pat_H]

Sorry about the misspelling. It's actually a 'Dragunov'. Anyway, with standard ammunition it's effective range is about 600 meters (The rifle can accept the older Mosin Nagant M1891/30 cartridge). So, as far as a sniper rifle is concerned that is just ok. But, if you use the specialized ammunition designed for the Dragunov, you effectively extend the 'reach out and touch someone' range out to around 1300± meters, with a muzzle velocity of around 840 meters per second. Not too shabby at that point.

Now the Swedish Mauser is a complete joy even with stock surplus ammunition. Its 6.5x55 mm round basically has a flat trajectory ans on my 1904 m96 minimum sighting is set for 300 meters. It even came with the adjustment chart decal on the stock. I would have loved to get the sniper model from WW I that has the bent bolt handle and a Carl Zeiss scope. But those went for a mint even in the plentiful days of the early 90's. I personally think that it makes a far superior target rifle compared to the '03 Springfield.

Cheers!

Dan

Everything about the Swedish 96 is good. It's very accurate, and the 6.5x55 is one of the great all time all purpose cartridges.

 

[deanglen]

like? This model of Campaign hat has a wider ribbon than the earlier models. I wonder if it is more like the standard bow we are used to seeing on our fedoras?

Dan

Here's the best I can do to capture the ribbon bow on Captain Jerome's campaign cover.

Not exactly the bow I would have expected. Looks much more fedora-like.

dean

 

[DanielJones]

Once I find a good one to make the conversion to a campaign hat of that era I may just see if you can do a ribbon treatment for me Dean. I still have a black annodized EGA devise that I can pin to the crown as well. This will be rather fun to do.

Now if only I can find good barrel & stock replacements for my cut down Krag I'd be set.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Kilroy]

Click the link at post #44

Young trooper would of taken a thumping from the DI's of my era (63) for not keeping weapon pointed downrange.

 

[deanglen]

Got it!

dean

 

[deanglen]

This picture linked at post #44 by Pat H.,is also interesting because it has the 'fore and aft' bash on the hats on some of the soldiers in the background.

I wonder if there was some resistance to the "montana peak' being used, like a break in tradition which the military is loathe to accept, unless the regulations change, and even then I'm sure some can't brook it, e.g. the black beret issue in the Army.

dean

 

[Pat_H]

I wonder if there was some resistance to the "montana peak' being used, like a break in tradition which the military is loathe to accept, unless the regulations change, and even then I'm sure some can't brook it, e.g. the black beret issue in the Army.

dean

I've never read of their being oppoisiton to the change, which doesn't mean there wasn't.

The change was sort of a creeping affiar, in some ways. There'd been a lot of use of private purchase hats throughout the frontier era, and even the M1911 hat doesn't come long after that. Montana Peak style hats started showing up in use at least by the 1890. Prior to its adoption it was pretty common style. I've seen one photo taken on the rifle range at West Point where everyone is wearing one, prior to 1911, but they have 4" brims rather than 3" ones.

Still, after it was adopted the old style hat hung on, particularly in National Guard units, but even in RA units to an extent. I wonder if the old hat was in the "issue until supply is exhausted" category.

 

[up196]

This day in history

The Marines did go ashore, historically. Didn't they?

dean

From "A Brief History of U.S. Navy Cruisers"

"May 30, 1904 — The bandit chieftain, Raisouli, kidnapped a naturalized American citizen, Ion Perdicaris, in Morocco. President Roosevelt informed the Moroccan government that we wanted "Perdicaris alive or Raisouli dead" and landed Captain J.T. Myers's Marine detachment from the cruiser USS Brooklyn (ACR 3) at Tangier. Shortly thereafter, Raisouli released Pedicaris."

With her high foc'sle, three tall stacks and side-mounted turret between stacks 2 and 3, no other ship in the fleet looked quite like the Brooklyn. Compare this picture with the center vessel shown in the landing scene of The Wind And The Lion.

And now, the "real Captain Jerome," John Twiggs Myers, United States Marines

 

[deanglen]

Here's a nice informative site:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/220604/message/1101146537/ABOUT+THE+WIND+and+THE+LION+By+R.W.+Gaines+Gny+Sgt+USMC+(Ret.)

dean