Campaign hat study from "The Wind and The Lion"

[Pat_H]

The '03 Springfield was adopted in, what, June of that year?

Remember, the Marine Corps at the time was still primarily spread out in ship's detachments, not formed, centrally-based infantry units. Also, we were poor, just like today. "Correct" or not I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it took that long to get enough Springfields out to arm all those dispersed units.

Heck, after the transition away from the .45-70 Springfield conversion some Marines were using the 6mm 1895 Lee Navy rifle into the first part of the 20th Century (Boxer Rebellion).

As usual, I should have read through all the replies before posting. Carebear is qutie correct, the Marines used the 1895 Lee at this time.

FWIW, the M1903 had a much longer service life than generally imagined, as did the Krag (although the Krag's life wasn't with the Marines). The Army even took a few Krags to Europe in 1917 to train with. The M1903 remained a front line weapons in various roles all the way through World War Two, and remained in use in declining numbers a ship board weapon and a sniper rifle well in to the 1960s.

 

[Pat_H]

up196 has answered the question. 1908! Man, the USMC sure did have to stand in line for a while. Matt and DJ have been proven correct! Thanks everyone. Naphtali got the Peking point correct, too. Kudos all around!:eusa_clap

dean

It's not as long as it might seem.

The M1903 entered service in 1903, with the new .30 U.S. cartridge (that is the .30-03, which replacd the .30-40). However, initial production was quite slow.

The rifle underwent a substantial redesign quite soon, inspired in part by President Theodore Roosevelt's dislike of its rod bayonet, and some problems with other features. Very significantly, the cartridge was redesigned to take into account the introduction of spitzer bullets in the Mauser line of cartridges. The .30-03 fired a round nose bullet, which was made obsolete by the German bullet innovations.

The new cartridge came out in 1906. This is the .30-06. So when the Marines started taking in M1903s in 1908, the rifle was really only two years old.

 

[deanglen]

Pat, as much as iIlove hats, I can't get enough military history! Thank you for your input. I have seriously been considering how I could start a forum for military headgear primarily and military history secondarily. There are lots of militaria forums, history forums, I know, but for me military headgear is my first interest, and all the other stuff flows from them. I suppose it's really not worth persuing. I love it when a hat thread brings the history to the front. I do. Thank you, those who know! Check out this link! Terrific! The film was very accurate, within the limitations of the time:
http://www.users.fast.net/~kragmeister/win-lee/index.htm

dean

 

[up196]

Marines on the USS Baltimore in 1905

The Krag rifle in service with the US Marines (photo courtesy the Naval Historical Center, Washington Navy Yard):

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h95000/h95652.jpg

The caption for this picture on the NHC site:

Photo #: NH 95652

USS Baltimore (Cruiser # 3)

Ship's Marines in "heavy marching order", on board the cruiser during her Asiatic Fleet deployment, circa 1904-1906.
These Marines are equipped for winter expeditionary party duty, with "horseshoe" rolls containing their blankets rolled in rubber ponchos. They are armed with Krag rifles (M1898) and bayonets, and are wearing woven double loop cartridge belts.
Two of the Marines in the back row appear to be of oriental extraction.

Courtesy of the Naval Historical Foundation. Collection of Captain Nathan Sargent.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Online Image: 107KB; 740 x 530 pixels

Another interesting picture:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/i01000/i01377.jpg

The caption for this picture on the NHC site:

Photo #: NH 101377

USS Baltimore (Cruiser # 3)

Sailors and Marines from the ship's crew at the rifle range, Auckland, New Zealand, circa 1904-1906.

Copied from the USS Baltimore album, page 47.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Online Image: 103KB; 740 x 535 pixels

So what do these pictures tell us about The Wind And The Lion?

The Baltimore departed on her Asiatic deployment in 1904, the year in which The Wind And The Lion is set. The ship's Marines wore blue uniforms (as well as some in what appear to be Khaki and one, in the front, possibly in linen), with campaign hats, as seen in the Auckland range photo and, by 1904, when the cruise began, the Model 1898 Krag rifle had replaced the 1895 Winchester-Lee among ship's detachments like the Marines in the movie.

Looks to me the movie is on the mark.

 

[deanglen]

Thanks, up196!

dean

 

[Pat_H]

The Krag rifle in service with the US Marines (photo courtesy the Naval Historical Center, Washington Navy Yard):

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h95000/h95652.jpg

The caption for this picture on the NHC site:

Photo #: NH 95652

USS Baltimore (Cruiser # 3)

Ship's Marines in "heavy marching order", on board the cruiser during her Asiatic Fleet deployment, circa 1904-1906.
These Marines are equipped for winter expeditionary party duty, with "horseshoe" rolls containing their blankets rolled in rubber ponchos. They are armed with Krag rifles (M1898) and bayonets, and are wearing woven double loop cartridge belts.
Two of the Marines in the back row appear to be of oriental extraction.

Courtesy of the Naval Historical Foundation. Collection of Captain Nathan Sargent.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Online Image: 107KB; 740 x 530 pixels

Another interesting picture:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/i01000/i01377.jpg

The caption for this picture on the NHC site:

Photo #: NH 101377

USS Baltimore (Cruiser # 3)

Sailors and Marines from the ship's crew at the rifle range, Auckland, New Zealand, circa 1904-1906.

Copied from the USS Baltimore album, page 47.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Online Image: 103KB; 740 x 535 pixels

So what do these pictures tell us about The Wind And The Lion?

The Baltimore departed on her Asiatic deployment in 1904, the year in which The Wind And The Lion is set. The ship's Marines wore blue uniforms (as well as some in what appear to be Khaki and one, in the front, possibly in linen), with campaign hats, as seen in the Auckland range photo and, by 1904, when the cruise began, the Model 1898 Krag rifle had replaced the 1895 Winchester-Lee among ship's detachments like the Marines in the movie.

Looks to me the movie is on the mark.

Krags went to the Marines after the Marine Corps and Navy became dissatisfied with the Navy Lee during the Spanish American War.

It's an interesting topic, although well off topic here. The gist of it is that all of the services had introduced a .38 revolver prior to the Spanish American War (although some .45s remained in service). The Army had, of course, adopted the cartridge we now know as the .30-40, but .45-70s remained in service. The Navy, taking the lead, went one step further in following a developing trend in Europe and adopted the 6mm USN.

In actual service, both the .38 and the 6mm USN proved to be disappointments. On the 6mm USN we have to keep in mind that it was using a long, round nosed, bullet, so it did not have the velocity that a modern projectile fired from the same sort of case would have. Anyhow, the cartridge was a disappointment, and the rifle was as well. In later designs Lee himself would return to the basic design of his .45-70 bolt action rifle, which had been experimented with prior to the adoption of the .30-40. That later design would form the basis for the series of British Lees.

Anyhow, given the problems with the 6mm USN and the Navy Lee, the Navy began to issue some Krags to Marines. I don't know if they ever completely replaced the Lee, but I do not think they did. But it is correct, of course, (as has been demonstrated here) that the Marines did use some. I'm under the impression that the numbers were relatively small, but they certainly existed.

To complete the story, the .38 was found lacking by everyone, which resulted in the re issuance of .45 revolvers until a new one was adopted in 1911, the legendary M1911. The Krag was also found to be lacking, and work on a replacement utilizing Mauser principals began almost immediately after the war. That would result in the M1903.

 

[Rooster]

I may be way off here, nothing unusual about that.... I thought the P14 (is that what they called those?)was the most issued gun in WWI for US soldiers with the '03 a distant second. Some WWI buff is bound to know what I'm trying to say here...
EDIT:I just thought of it! It is the Eddystone P17.

 

[Pat_H]

I may be way off here, nothing unusual about that.... I thought the P14 (is that what they called those?)was the most issued gun in WWI for US soldiers with the '03 a distant second. Some WWI buff is bound to know what I'm trying to say here...
EDIT:I just thought of it! It is the Eddystone P17.

The story of that is this.

Following the Boer War there were concerns in the UK that the Lee rifles had proven to be inadequate in comparison to the 95 Mausers used by the Boers. Indeed, the Lee carbine passed out of use entirely early in the war, never to return.

The immediate consequence of this was that the Lee was reconfigured in to a "short rifle" of the type that Mauser had already introduced (but which the Germans would not adopt as an absolute standard until the 30s). Additionally, and more importantly, the Lee was reconfigured to accept a Mauser type "stripper clip". The Krag, on the other hand, could not easily be redesigned for that feature, so it was abandoned by the US.

In spite of that, there were serious concerns in the British rifle community that retaining the .303 cartridge was a bad idea, and that a Mauser type rifle should be adopted. This is, of course, what the US did in that it adopted a Mauser type rifle in the M1903, although it retained some Krag features. In the British case, a new design was worked together with a new high velocity 7mm cartridge.

That design was pretty much ready to in the early teens, but tests showed that British troops found firing the new 7mm catridge was uncomfortable, as it had much higher velocity than the .303, and it had a stouter recoil. As a result, the British continued to work on the design.

When WWI broke out, the new cartridge had not been completed, but the rifle design had been. So, as a stop gap, the British adopted the rifle as the P14, redesigned for the .303, and contracted with Remington and Winchester in the United States to manufacture it. A large number were made, and in spite of occasional suggestions to the contrary, it did see combat use by the British in the First World War. Additionally, as it was much more readily adaptable to a scope, it as modified for use as a sniper rifle. The sniper variant continued in use by the Australians in to WWII, although they also made a modified version of the SMLE for sniper use.

As the bore diameter of the weapons was .30, and as the original design contemplated a long 7mm cartridge, redesigning the weapon for .30-06 was easy to do, and when the US entered WWI that was done, with the rifle being adopted as the M1917.

Remington and Winchesters manufacturing capacity grossly exceeded the United States governments, and as a result, there were more M1917s in service by the end of WWI than there were M1903s. You could roughly say the number was about 50/50, with there being somewhat more M1917s in service than M1903s.

After the war, given the number of the M1917s in service, there was some consideration to it being made the standard and abandoning the M1903. This was not done, however, as the government arsenals favored the M1903, as did target shooters. The M1917 was retained as a reserve rifle however, and it continued to be issued to Chemical Mortar troops for some reason.

During WWII the M1917 came back into active service early in the war and was issued to artillerymen. The M1917 was, therefore, the rifle of artillery and chemical mortarmen (firing conventional mortars, of course) throughout the North African campaign. After that, the M1917s were replaced with other weapons. The M1917 was also issued very early to US Rangers who trained with it in Great Britain, but who never used it in combat. The M1917 was also supplied lead lease to the British, who issued it to home guard untis, and to the Nationalist Chinese and the Free French. The Free French, including French colonial troops used in Europe, used it in combat in Europe at least up in to 1944.

To add just a bit, there's a lot of confusion about "Eddystone" M1917s. All Eddystone connotes is that the rifle was made at Remington's Eddystone PA plant. Rifles made at Eddystone are believed to have been marked "ERA", although that is subject to dispute, as some same that stands for "Eli Remington Arms". Generally, however ERA marked M1917s or P14s are believed to have been made at Eddystone.

The significance of it is that the Eddystone receivers are more brittle, usually, than other M1917 or P14 receivers. This is of significance to those who build sporting rifles on M1917 or P14 receivers, as the Eddystone receivers will sometimes crack when the original barrels are removed. In addition to the Eddystone plant, however, Remingtons regular plant made the rifles, as did Winchester.

 

[Harp]

If this 1904, history tells us, and the film, why are they using Krags? Should they be using the 1903 Springfield? [huh]

dean

Excellent thread/pix, Dean. Same story for the M1 Garand Rifle in WWII,
which did not reach Oahu until 1941.

 

[Pat_H]

Excellent thread/pix, Dean. Same story for the M1 Garand Rifle in WWII,
which did not reach Oahu until 1941.

The Garand does follow a similar history, although it's a bit odd in that some units you figure would have gotten it late, got it early, and others you figure would have gotten it early, got it late.

The Marines were truly on the bottom of the list, however for the M1 Garand. They generally received it after the Army had pretty well equipped their infantrymen with M1 Garands. The Army, however, never completely equipped itself with M1 Garands during WWII. The Army continued to issue M1903s to a soldier designated as a "scout sniper" in the Platoon. This marksman was issued a conventional M1903, not a scoped one. And the soldier designated as a grenadier continued to be issued the M1903 up in to late 1944, as the rifle grenade hadn't been perfected for M1 Grand use yet. Military Policemen continued to be issued M1903s and M1903A3s throughout the war, together with M1 carbines, so the M1903 remained their common rifle.

 

[DanielJones]

Wow! It may be a tad off subject but I like where this is going. Great history lesson with some cool hats!:eusa_clap

Cheers!

Dan

 

[up196]

Allow me to apologize in advance to any who are offended

Dean, the Marines didn't use the Krag. They used the Navy Lee.

Krags went to the Marines after the Marine Corps and Navy became dissatisfied with the Navy Lee during the Spanish American War.

It's an interesting topic, although well off topic here.

Anyhow, given the problems with the 6mm USN and the Navy Lee, the Navy began to issue some Krags to Marines. I don't know if they ever completely replaced the Lee, but I do not think they did. But it is correct, of course, (as has been demonstrated here) that the Marines did use some. I'm under the impression that the numbers were relatively small, but they certainly existed.

I have to humbly disagree that it is exactly on topic here. One of the benefits of such a thread is that we can learn more about a topic of interest to those taking part. In this case, that topic involved the accuracy of the screen portrayal of the Marines in The Wind And The Lion. It is not whether the .38 Colt lacked stopping power, etc., etc.

Photographic evidence was presented to show that the US Marines were wearing blues and campaign hats and were using Krag rifles in 1904, the time frame of the movie. Yet when confronted by those Marines gazing at us across 102 years of history, some still will not believe and rumors and incorrect information will persist. Well, here are the numbers, and they are not relatively small:

The Winchester 6mm Lee Navy Rifle, Model of 1895, was procured in two contracts beginning in 1896 for arming the Navy and Marine Corps. The total number obtained under both contracts was 15,000 rifles (first contract of 10,000; second contract of 5,000).

As cited on page 97 of "The Krag Rifle Story" by Mallory and Olsen, and based on research in the National Archives, "Starting in Fiscal Year (FY) 1900, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps adopted the Krag rifle, and approximately 70,000 Model 1898 rifles were issued to them."

Bannerman's began selling surplus '95 Lee Navy's in 1900.

Pages 4, 5 and 9 of "The Krag Rifle" by Brophy show Official United States Marine Corps photographs of Krag-armed Marines; in Peking on page 4, a group shot of Company H, First Battalion in the Philippines in 1901 on page 5 and, on page 9, Major Walter's Battalion in the Philippines in 1900.

The photos on pages 4 and 5 show the men dressed in blues with campaign hats. Page 9 shows officers in front in Khaki but the men's uniforms cannot be determined.

So the get back to the topic, is the portrayal of the Marines in The Wind And The Lion correct as to uniforms and arms?

Yes.

.

 

[deanglen]

Off topic, yes, but like you Daniel, I find it fascinating!:eusa_clap

dean

 

[Naphtali]

Is this a good time to mention that Pedecaris was an elderly Greek (naturalized US citizen) gentleman, the Raisuli was about 23 years old, and the release was peacefully negotiated?

 

[Harp]

FWIW, the M1903 had a much longer service life than generally imagined. The M1903 remained a front line weapons in various roles all the way through World War Two, and remained in use in declining numbers a ship board weapon and a sniper rifle well in to the 1960s.

M1903 Springfield Rifle was still in active field service through late 1970s.

 

[Pat_H]

I have to humbly disagree that it is exactly on topic here. One of the benefits of such a thread is that we can learn more about a topic of interest to those taking part. In this case, that topic involved the accuracy of the screen portrayal of the Marines in The Wind And The Lion. It is not whether the .38 Colt lacked stopping power, etc., etc.

Photographic evidence was presented to show that the US Marines were wearing blues and campaign hats and were using Krag rifles in 1904, the time frame of the movie. Yet when confronted by those Marines gazing at us across 102 years of history, some still will not believe and rumors and incorrect information will persist. Well, here are the numbers, and they are not relatively small:

The Winchester 6mm Lee Navy Rifle, Model of 1895, was procured in two contracts beginning in 1896 for arming the Navy and Marine Corps. The total number obtained under both contracts was 15,000 rifles (first contract of 10,000; second contract of 5,000).

As cited on page 97 of "The Krag Rifle Story" by Mallory and Olsen, and based on research in the National Archives, "Starting in Fiscal Year (FY) 1900, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps adopted the Krag rifle, and approximately 70,000 Model 1898 rifles were issued to them."

Bannerman's began selling surplus '95 Lee Navy's in 1900.

Pages 4, 5 and 9 of "The Krag Rifle" by Brophy show Official United States Marine Corps photographs of Krag-armed Marines; in Peking on page 4, a group shot of Company H, First Battalion in the Philippines in 1901 on page 5 and, on page 9, Major Walter's Battalion in the Philippines in 1900.

The photos on pages 4 and 5 show the men dressed in blues with campaign hats. Page 9 shows officers in front in Khaki but the men's uniforms cannot be determined.

So the get back to the topic, is the portrayal of the Marines in The Wind And The Lion correct as to uniforms and arms?

Yes.

.

Offtopic or not, it's sure been a fun discussion. I'm glad the moderators here will tolerate us straying so widely!

 

[Pat_H]

I have to humbly disagree that it is exactly on topic here. One of the benefits of such a thread is that we can learn more about a topic of interest to those taking part. In this case, that topic involved the accuracy of the screen portrayal of the Marines in The Wind And The Lion. It is not whether the .38 Colt lacked stopping power, etc., etc.

Photographic evidence was presented to show that the US Marines were wearing blues and campaign hats and were using Krag rifles in 1904, the time frame of the movie. Yet when confronted by those Marines gazing at us across 102 years of history, some still will not believe and rumors and incorrect information will persist. Well, here are the numbers, and they are not relatively small:

The Winchester 6mm Lee Navy Rifle, Model of 1895, was procured in two contracts beginning in 1896 for arming the Navy and Marine Corps. The total number obtained under both contracts was 15,000 rifles (first contract of 10,000; second contract of 5,000).

As cited on page 97 of "The Krag Rifle Story" by Mallory and Olsen, and based on research in the National Archives, "Starting in Fiscal Year (FY) 1900, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps adopted the Krag rifle, and approximately 70,000 Model 1898 rifles were issued to them."

Bannerman's began selling surplus '95 Lee Navy's in 1900.

Pages 4, 5 and 9 of "The Krag Rifle" by Brophy show Official United States Marine Corps photographs of Krag-armed Marines; in Peking on page 4, a group shot of Company H, First Battalion in the Philippines in 1901 on page 5 and, on page 9, Major Walter's Battalion in the Philippines in 1900.

The photos on pages 4 and 5 show the men dressed in blues with campaign hats. Page 9 shows officers in front in Khaki but the men's uniforms cannot be determined.

So the get back to the topic, is the portrayal of the Marines in The Wind And The Lion correct as to uniforms and arms?

Yes.

.

To add, the number of Krags that went to the Marines is a real surprise to me. I was under the impression that it was a small number, but that's a very large number.

Indeed, that's a real illumination. I was under the impression that the Marines had a limited exposure to the Krag, but clearly this is not so. With those numbers, the Krag would really have been more significant to the Marines than the Lee. I want to thank up196 for all the detail, as I was way off in my impression on a limited use for the Krag in the USMC.

 

[Pat_H]

Off topic, yes, but like you Daniel, I find it fascinating!:eusa_clap

dean

I fully agree.

 

[Pat_H]

M1903 Springfield Rifle was still in active field service through late 1970s.

Through the late 70s? I'm aware of field use, in the form of sniper rifles, in to the 60s, but not the 70s, save for some potential ship board use. Did you have ship board use in mind or other use?

 

[Pat_H]

Is this a good time to mention that Pedecaris was an elderly Greek (naturalized US citizen) gentleman, the Raisuli was about 23 years old, and the release was peacefully negotiated?

The movie does stray a bit there, doesn't it?