BUZZ RICKSON B2 FLIGHT JACKET

[MudInYerEye]

...and, it goes without saying, the B-2 was developed by Leroy Leslie Irving, father of the Irvinsuit.

Alan

Is it documented that Leroy Leslie Irving designed the B-1 and B-2 jackets? I was under the impression that the B-1 and B-2 provided the inspiration for the pattern of the Irvin.

 

[Edward]

Edward,

My statement is based on simple observation. If you examine a D-1 you will see that it has few features such as waist adjustment or shoulder tabs (some don't even have pockets) and is of a very simple 'straight' construction. The B-6 has a number of features that the D-1 lacks (e.g. a bi-swing back, unique hip adjustement zips and epaulettes) and is much more shaped. Even the throat latch of the B-6 is more complicated. I guess the D-1 was built to a price, being 'only' for ground crew.

I'll have to look at the on the Eastman site again - the pockets looked like the only difference, but I'll have to look again. I think there's a difference of something like £30 in price, so there's got to be a difference or two there, of course!

The B-6 was a common enough jacket among fighter pilots if photographs are anything to go by (particularly in P-38s) although by 1944 the most common jackets were the alpaca lined cloth jobs.

Cool, thanks - I'm still learning here, and this sort of information is really helpful. and now we hear of B1s.... I've not yet seen a B1 at all, presumably that's just something noone has chosen to reissue yet?

 

[Alan Eardley]

Is it documented that Leroy Leslie Irving designed the B-1 and B-2 jackets? I was under the impression that the B-1 and B-2 provided the inspiration for the pattern of the Irvin.

Mud,

I don't know about the B-1. I think that the information that LLI designed (or had a hand in designing) the B-2 comes from his own reminiscences recorded in his old age by Columbia University's Oral History Research Office. As such it may not be completely reliable. Old men exaggerate - I do it all the time - but I don't see any reason to doubt it. According to Stuart Clurman, JA Dubow had the sole contract - I'm not sure how that would fit in with the idea of LLI designing it. Maybe he acted as a consultant. It is consistent with his documented statements that better safety equipment (his parachutes) would enable pilots to fly higher and further and therefore they would need warmer clothing.

It also seems that USAAF interest in the garment did not sustain (procurement was small between 1931 and 1933) and LLI possibly came up with the idea that sales of a similar suit would be better in Europe, which he had visited in 1931-32 with a barnstorming friend.

The B-2 must certainly have inspired the Irvinsuit as there are some very similar features, but the Irvin is much simpler in construction and was probably cheaper to make. LLI was attracted to a new industrial development in a 'garden city' development called Letchworth and began to make parachutes, safety harnesses and flying suits there. The suits were aimed at civilians at first but a lmited contract to supply the Air Ministry was obtained and the rest, as they say, is history.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

I'll have to look at the on the Eastman site again - the pockets looked like the only difference, but I'll have to look again. I think there's a difference of something like £30 in price, so there's got to be a difference or two there, of course!

Edward,

I used to work as a Work Study dude for a protective clothing manufacturer and it was a part of my job to calculate how much garments would cost. I may be rusty, but without going into detail I can tell you with some confidence that there is more that £30 worth of work and materials in a B-6 compared to a D-1. That makes the B-6 a positive bargain! The D-1 is basically a sheepskin T-shirt with a collar and zip.

Alan

 

[MudInYerEye]

The B-1 (late 20's/early30's) was identical to the B-2 with the only difference being a shearling rather than pile lining. Grant has a copy of the great Japanese bible FULL GEAR which includes detailed groovy photos of a several B-1 jackets. Regarding Senor Clurman's assertation of Dubow being the sole manufacturer of the B-2 (or B-1), that's just plain baloney. I called Grant and he's gonna dig up the names of the various B-1/B-2 manufacturers in FULL GEAR when he gets home tonight.

 

[MudInYerEye]

scroll down:

http://www.fullgear.net/english/index.html

 

[SGB]

B-1 and B-2 Manufacturers

B-1 = Switlik
B-2 = Werber and Switlik

per "Full Gear".

SGB

 

[SGB]

It's an original M445a US Navy Aviator flight jacket from WWII. Mint condition (which is rare, as are these shearlings now, as the sea salt air often trashed the leather, so they are few and far between), but sadly not getting much wear[huh]

Nice M445a Paddy, don't dare tell what you paid for it...

Too small for me and no need for that heavy of a jacket around here.

SGB

 

[MudInYerEye]

B-1 = Switlik
B-2 = Werber and Switlik

per "Full Gear".

SGB

So says Grant as well. It should be noted that there were TWO Switlik contracts for the B-1.

 

[Alan Eardley]

The B-1 (late 20's/early30's) was identical to the B-2 with the only difference being a shearling rather than pile lining. Grant has a copy of the great Japanese bible FULL GEAR which includes detailed groovy photos of a several B-1 jackets. Regarding Senor Clurman's assertation of Dubow being the sole manufacturer of the B-2 (or B-1), that's just plain baloney. I called Grant and he's gonna dig up the names of the various B-1/B-2 manufacturers in FULL GEAR when he gets home tonight.

Mud,

Thanks for that. I can't remember whether LLI was claiming involvement with (or influence on) both the B-1 and B-2 or just the latter. I only remember mention of the B-2. Since, as you say, they are so similar I think it's reasonable to assume that he was either refering to both generically or was mistaken. I think that by observation we can assume an influence on the Irvinsuit - the early ones have sleeve seams like the B-1/2.

WRT the contractor(s) I'd tend to believe the author of 'Full Gear' rather than Lost Worlds. I'm not sure what form of assertion Stuart makes - his repro has a JAD label, but it strikes me that SC has (or thinks he has) some sort of legal rights to the Dubow name, so he's going to use a JAD label on his repros, right?

Regards and thanks to Grant, by the way. What is the Navy jacket on P115 of Full Gear?

Alan

 

[Edward]

The B-1 (late 20's/early30's) was identical to the B-2 with the only difference being a shearling rather than pile lining. Grant has a copy of the great Japanese bible FULL GEAR which includes detailed groovy photos of a several B-1 jackets. Regarding Senor Clurman's assertation of Dubow being the sole manufacturer of the B-2 (or B-1), that's just plain baloney. I called Grant and he's gonna dig up the names of the various B-1/B-2 manufacturers in FULL GEAR when he gets home tonight.

Looks like a great book - shame they've shelved plans to do an English edition. Is there anything similar on the market in English? I've seen a few books, but they seem to be dominated by the A2 - not having any reading material on this, I'd be interested in something more general that covers all the variations...

What is the difference between shearling and pile? I think i could tell one from the other by sight, but I don't really know the technical difference, if you see what I mean....

Edward,

I used to work as a Work Study dude for a protective clothing manufacturer and it was a part of my job to calculate how much garments would cost. I may be rusty, but without going into detail I can tell you with some confidence that there is more that £30 worth of work and materials in a B-6 compared to a D-1. That makes the B-6 a positive bargain! The D-1 is basically a sheepskin T-shirt with a collar and zip.

Alan

Makes sense! It's a pity that Eastman and Aero are both a bit out of the way (especially as I don't drive), but I might well make the effort to check them out in person once I'm in that market. The B6 is really tempting as an Autumn / turn of Winter / early Spring alternative to the A2, though the B2 is still very tempting for the winter.... Maybe one day a used B3 or Irvin.... gah.... this place is gonig to ruin me! Eh well. I was the same with guitars, I went through different ones I wanted for years (still do!) finding out everything I could for years before I actually was able to afford one I wanted... I'm sure I was a pain in the ass to the guys in thed guitar shop I kept asking about them all, but it did mean that when I had the money to spend I was well informed and didn't make an expensive mistake!

 

[Rufus]

Hi Edward,

the B1 has a sheepskin lining (like an Irving), and the B2's is almost like a superb fake fur pile, not as bulky, and lighter. (or Del Boy-ish!!)

Irvings are great..but they weigh enough to make you wish you were sitting on a bomber...

The B2 jacket I have weighs the same as a heavy MC jacket.

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

the B1 has a sheepskin lining (like an Irving), and the B2's is almost like a superb fake fur pile, not as bulky, and lighter. (or Del Boy-ish!!)

Irvings are great..but they weigh enough to make you wish you were sitting on a bomber...

The B2 jacket I have weighs the same as a heavy MC jacket.

Thanks - sounds like the B2 would be a touch more practical for me to begin with at least.

 

[Rufus]

'Practical' well......it is a big heavy jacket nontheless... It looks great though..

But Ie'd Recommend an A2 in terms of practicality (and weight).

B2s aren't cheap, and it's much easier to find a lovely second hand A2 on Ebay.

I'd recommend tracking a few items, watch auctions, generally get an idea how much you want to spend...

I tend to jump into things, and find I end up replacing stuff, as I've overexcitedly ordered stuff that doesn't fit, or doesn't look good on ME...

Take your time...enjoy the 'finding'!

Rufus

 

[Edward]

Oh, yeah - the A2 is definitely coming first. The B2 or something like that is a fair way down the trsck yet, and hopefully I'll manage to get to Eastman or somewhere to try them on yet. I've seen a fair few really nice A2s selling on eBay - continuing to watch there and see what turns up. At the minute I'm really sold on the look of the Aero Seal Brown with the reddish-tinged cuffs. I'm a while away from buying, though if the right eBay deal turns up.... So far it seems that anything in the sort of condition I'm after goes for the £250 mark... I've also been looking at the used section on the Aero website, which seems to be about the same. Hopefully by the time it comes to buying I'll have a really good feel for the market.

 

[SGB]

Regards and thanks to Grant, by the way. What is the Navy jacket on P115 of Full Gear?

Alan[/QUOTE]

The jacket is an M375, contract number N156S-15012, made by Willis and Geiger, dated 1940. Same contract as the M384 suit.

SGB (not Grant)

 

[Alan Eardley]

Regards and thanks to Grant, by the way. What is the Navy jacket on P115 of Full Gear?

Alan

The jacket is an M375, contract number N156S-15012, made by Willis and Geiger, dated 1940. Same contract as the M384 suit.

SGB (not Grant)[/QUOTE]

SGB,

Thanks and regards to you! I have heard of the M384 suit, but I've never seen a M375 jacket before. Even in the 'thumbnail' sized pic. it looks interesting. The USN seems to have had so many different flight clothing items around this period! I wonder why?

Alan

 

[John Lever]

Here are some shots of my B2's from LW and BR

John

 

[John Lever]

Also I found these -

 

[Edward]

Both look like goregeous jackets - I prefer the look of the one on the left, simply cause I prefer the caramel colour of the collar as opposed to the deeper brown - they both look really nice, though.