Buy New, Vintage or Victorian Home?

[Lincsong]

I dunno. At least here on the East Coast old houses (lets say 70+) are often built out of much better materials and with much more craftsmanship. And masonry lasts a really long time with NO maintainance, a whole lot longer than newfangled vinyl and EIFs and PVC.

EIFs is the devil, I swear.

My uncle bought a new house - thank goodness it had a warranty, the first day in there the shower fell from the 2nd flr. to the 1st.

Vivat Victorian!

-Viola

I hope no one was in it!

 

[Lincsong]

Another interesting point brought up earlier was what was or is the life span of glue for plywood. I've been pondering this question for a while since here in California the building code requires exterior sheerwall over the studs then the exterior siding material; wood, aluminum, stucco. The reasoning is that in an earthquake the sheerwall would keep the studs from swaying back and forth. What I am thinking is;

1. The glue on plywood and chip board will eventually get old, rot and become brittle thereby giving people a false sense of security in an earthquake.

2. The above process will be sped up because stucco has retains some moisture even if black paper is used to cover the sheerwall.

Any contractors or builders out there? Can you help me out?[huh]

 

[Phil]

Another interesting point brought up earlier was what was or is the life span of glue for plywood. I've been pondering this question for a while since here in California the building code requires exterior sheerwall over the studs then the exterior siding material; wood, aluminum, stucco. The reasoning is that in an earthquake the sheerwall would keep the studs from swaying back and forth. What I am thinking is;

1. The glue on plywood and chip board will eventually get old, rot and become brittle thereby giving people a false sense of security in an earthquake.

2. The above process will be sped up because stucco has retains some moisture even if black paper is used to cover the sheerwall.

Any contractors or builders out there? Can you help me out?[huh]

I'm not especially familiar with California building code (I just got done learning most of Illinois' code from a nice expensive book ). Anywho, just as a structural standpoint, glue only holds onto a small area of wood. And, as I'm sure most, if not all of you know, wood splinters. Because wood rots and splinters, the glue will only hold that small glued area. Is what I'm saying making sense? For how important this one step is, nails would be more desireable.

Stucco holds about as much water per square foot as one sheet of a paper towel.

 

[Roger]

New or old, find out about the neighbors first

Because you can end up with some jerk who doesn't take care of his yard, has peeling paint, old cars all over leaking oil, won't pay half to fix the fence and if a branch from your tree grows over the fence he'll cut it and throw it over into your yard. I have a moron like this here in California. (Never had that problem in Rhode Island and this is a company owned house[huh] ). I threw the branch back over and told him; "if you cut it, you get rid of it. Next time it will be you who will be thrown over the fence".lol

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Because you can end up with some jerk who doesn't take care of his yard, has peeling paint, old cars all over leaking oil, won't pay half to fix the fence and if a branch from your tree grows over the fence he'll cut it and throw it over into your yard. I have a moron like this here in California. (Never had that problem in Rhode Island and this is a company owned house[huh] ). I threw the branch back over and told him; "if you cut it, you get rid of it. Next time it will be you who will be thrown over the fence".lol

Neighbors move, and worse, some turn their houses into rentals and don't care about the tenants. I know, I live next to one right now.

 

[Viola]

I hope no one was in it!

Someone was, but my cousin wasn't hurt, only embarrassed/scared. If it had been an eighty-year-old who couldn't very well be expected to leap to safety and not an 18-year-old, this would not have been a moderately funny family story.

Its a cute looking house, but still... I never quite managed to stop wondering what else was going on with it.

-Viola

 

[ohairas]

Good point about bad neighbors... I also think that along with the absence of good manors of yesteryear, also goes the "taking care of home".. I mean, people who actually DO take the time to keep up on home maintenence these days are starting to become a minority it seems. So, even if a house is less than 10 years old, if it's owner didn't put any care into it, it can be as bad as an old dilapidated victorian.

I've hear tons of horror stories about new houses and the process of having one built.

For me, I LOVE the old homes. Mine turns 100 this year! But you have to ENJOY the process of upkeep and/or renovating. They certainly CAN be a PITA at times. And you either have to have the money for repairs, or "know someone" who can do things for you. At least in many neighborhoods, you can pick up a poor old house very cheap and "pay as you go" on the updates. Just have to see if it needs major things done first.

When we bought our house, all of the electric was "supposedly" updated. All of the ceilings had been lowered two feet and I wanted them raised back up. Good thing we tore into that, because all they did was wire new electric into the old post and peg! The original sockets were still in the original ceilings above! GEEEESH! So of course we had to rewire the hole friggin house.

It gets rather personal and obsessive, as if old homes have "feelings". I wish I could save every last one of them! Instead of prison, I wish they'd make inmates rehab old houses like in St. Louis. Such awesome architecture down there just waisting away.

It's a shame too, that hardly anyone learns a trade these days, such as plaster work. When you do find someone, it's outrageous.

For us it comes down to this. I love old houses. I love BIG houses. There's no way we could've touched a new house with over 2,500 sq. ft. and a decent lot for under 100k. So we're right where we want to be. I like the idea that I saved this house, just like saving vintage clothing.

Also, as Elaina(?) said, I like being able to close off certain rooms and the pocket doors are awesome.

Nikki

 

[Haversack]

The problem of eventual glue failure in plywood was the basis for this being one of my heretical questions in architecture school. We don't know what the lifespans of the glues are. As long as they stay dry, the structural plywood that has been in use for the past 70 years has remained sound. But because structural plywood has only been around for the past 70 years, we cannot know its lifespan. It might be good for another 150 years. It might only be good for another 20. However, until there is evidence of it occuring, I would rate plywood glue failure due to age as very low on the scale of home-owner worries. If you are having problems with plywood sheathing delaminating in a house, the causes are either because moisture is getting into the structure and not being able to get out, or an inferior grade of plywood was used. Plywood or OSB intended to be used as sheathing has specific qualities for that job. Other types of plywood have other qualities. For example, not all plywoods use water resistant/proof glues.*

The use of plywood, (and more recently Oriented Strand Board - OSB), as structural sheathing is a replacement for diagonal sheathing. If you have worked on pre-1940 houses out here you have probably seen this. It is usually 1x4 or 1x6 overlapped-edge boards nailed diagonally to the exterior of the house frame. The house siding, (brick veneer, stucco, or wooden lap) is then applied over the sheathing. Sheathing is part of the building's structure and stiffens it to prevent the frame from wracking. (Think the difference between a rectangle and a parallelogram.) Siding protects the house from moisture and sunlight, and provides the exterior finish. There is very often a moisture barrier between the sheathing and the siding. Today, it is a product such as "Tyvek". In our period of interest it would have been builders felt - commonly known as tar paper. Also, plywood or OSB used as structural sheathing today is always nailed to the frame. Some designs may additionally call for some form of adhesive to be used, but that is not standard practice.

Also, there is always some moisture present in the house structure, and it increases and decreases depending on weather, season, time-of-day, and occupancy. Structures usually need to "breath" These levels of moisture do not normally cause problems with either the glue or the wood. Problems occur when the material of the structure is saturated with moisture. This latter can occur through a variety of means. Moisture can be trapped within the structure due to the building being too "tight". There could be an internal leak from the roof into the wall. Heavy wind-driven rain can force its way in. Moisture can climb through capillary action from poorly drained soil. Condensation may be occuring within the wall due to its thermal cross-section. Floods are not unknown in some parts of the country.

How building age is an often-overlooked or blatantly-ignored component of Modern Architecture. Leaving aside the political philosophy of the movement, Modern Architecture incorporated a fascination with new technology at the expense of proven practice. From the aesthetic standpoint, new machine-made building materials were automatically assumed to be superior because they were modern and factory-made. Economically, new materials usually involved less skilled labour. Because of this, many older techniques or design practices which allowed a building to age well have largely been discarded in favor of the quick method. For an example, many of the elements of traditional window framing and how it meets the wall siding were there to repel and expel water. They may look decorative, but they actually serve a purpose. Through the aesthetic and economic aegis of Modern Architecture, many of these traditional features have been discarded in favour of sealants and caulks because they didn't look traditional and were quicker and cheaper to build with. And they often work well if installed properly. The problem occurs when the sealants and caulks eventually wear out. In one system I've seen, you have to remove the window frame in order to repair the sealant. Think of a car design where you had to pull the engine block in order to change the oil filter.

Thanks for letting me ramble. I hope this answered your question.

Haversack.

*The importance of the glue and process used in making plywood can be illustrated by two aircraft of the Second World War. The British DeHavilland Mosquito was a very fast manurverable twin-engine fighter/bomber/recon aircraft. It was largely built out of plywood and was very successful. So succesful was the DeHavilland that the Germans tried to copy it as the Focke Wulf Ta 154. However, the German plywood technology was not up to par and the glues used failed catastrophically causing the plywood to delaminate in flight!

 

[Lincsong]

Thanks Haversack. This has just been rolling around my brain for quite some time. I notice that when people add a second story on the homes now, the building code requires that the entire side of the house to have plywood sheathing.

 

[Phil]

It's definitley a portion of home ownership and construction that is sometimes overlooked by the average person.

 

[Lincsong]

Then there's the argument over whether to use traditional veneered plywood or chipped wood. Some say the chipped wood is superior because the wood chips still have their natural strength while veneered is weaker because of the thin nature of the sheets of veneer. Decisions, decisions.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I am resurrecting this thread because if all goes well I will be the proud owner of a 1950 ranch later this spring. And if this falls though I will always look for a 1950's ranch.

Here are some things I've learned about old vs new construction:

Linoleum made before 1980 is almost certain to have asbestos glue backing, so if you want it gone, best to have it tested first. It's usually only a danger if you plan to rip it out and sand away the backing from the floor. You can possibly lay flooring on top of it if you want a change, from what I've read.

Chinese drywall was used in some homes built between 2002-2007 and is causing major problems, prompting a class action lawsuit: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29470955/ The problem expands beyond Florida and CA.

Knob and tube wiring is uninsurable.

Granite countertops can omit harmful levels of radon: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/earlyshow/health/main4292754.shtml

Fuse boxes, if at least 100 amps, are safe as long as you don't put a larger fuse size in than it's designed to have.

1950's ranches often will lack a dishwasher.

Many people have updated mid-century ranches with new cabinets, bathroom redos and other changes which have ruined much of the period character and charm. It's hard to find one that is still mostly intact cosmetics-wise.

Neighborhoods with established older homes seemed to have been more immune to the house flipping and subprime loan blight that leaves many homes vacant due to foreclosures. At least that's how it is here in the Portland, Maine area.

Timber used in older homes is superior in strength to newer wood due to farming practices.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

One other thing- I ruled out a Victorian because it will cost too much to heat.

 

[Foofoogal]

Interesting as I am looking at a Victorian today. lol

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Interesting as I am looking at a Victorian today. lol

I live in Maine where heating is a huge consideration, but maybe not so much where you live.

 

[BeBopBaby]

One other thing- I ruled out a Victorian because it will cost too much to heat.

Be careful with that thought. My brother owns a 1950s ranch and I own a big Victorian. His house is much less energy efficient than mine because he has the original aluminum bay windows in his house that open by cranking them. Any heat in the house goes straight out those windows. So much so, he had to install a wood burning stove in his living room to help keep the house warm. We live in Pennsylvania, which gets cold in the winter, but no where near as cold as New England does.

 

[Foofoogal]

Windows make a huge difference and that is one thing new that are much better. I lived in a house a long time ago that had the windows that used weights in the wall. We heated and cooled the neighborhood I believe.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

This is very true about the windows, but insulation and sun exposure make a difference, too. I have insulating curtains on many windows in my current house which helps. The windows are from the 1970's and about to fall out! (I'm renting.)

 

[Foofoogal]

I have insulating curtains on many windows

I also believe in those curtains and they are hard to find it seems. Lined, yes. Insulated, no. One can buy the material at a fabric store if you find a clerk that knows what you mean. Some look at you like a deer in headlights.
Using the sun in winter helps to warm but those insulated curtains work well for winter or summer.

 

[vitanola]

One other thing- I ruled out a Victorian because it will cost too much to heat.

Well, our large Victorian (a 5000 sq ft Italianate) is not as expensive to heat as a friend's 1958 2000 sq ft ranch. Our home is fitted with restored original windows, all of which now seal well. We have only replaced the original windows with thermopane in the kitchen and in the bathrooms. The walls are four-course brick, which were tuck-pointed and repainted in 2000. they have no insulation save the air spaces built into them originally. The attics have 15" of blow-in cellulose insulation, and the interior frame walls are insulated with R-11 fiberglas for sound-proofing.

We found this home to be very expensive to heat with conventional forced warm air furnaces, even after the building was insulated, but since the building rerains much of its original closed floor-plan, in which every room can be closed off from every other room, and from the halls, we have since installed individually controllable radiant heat in most of the rooms, and heat rooms as we use them.

Our average fuel bills this past winter have been under $250.00/month. Our friends' ranch has cost over 60/month to heat this past winter.