Bowler vs Homburg

[mayserwegener]

Fedora is an American hat term from the late 1800s. Men's Fedoras were similsr to Homburgs (an Anglo hat term from about the same time period). I am not sure when Snap Brim soft felt hats started bring called Fedora but it was later (60s? 70s?). As I mentioned previously check out the threads started by RLK / Robert on the origin / evolution of the Fedora. Also I suggest taking Alan's advice and checking out the Homburg and Bowler threads. Also some of the views on this thread are heavily American / Anglo biased.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Fedora is an American hat term from the late 1800s. Men's Fedoras were similsr to Homburgs (an Anglo hat term from about the same time period). I am not sure when Snap Brim soft felt hats started bring called Fedora but it was later (60s? 70s?). As I mentioned previously check out the threads started by RLK / Robert on the origin / evolution of the Fedora. Also I suggest taking Alan's advice and checking out the Homburg and Bowler threads. Also some of the views on this thread are heavily American / Anglo biased.

It appears to have been a gradual transformation before mid-century. The term fedora seems to be used interchangeably for soft felt hats with either curled or snap brims by the 1930s. I've run across references to it being used for snap-brims in the early-1930s, but in 1929, for example, Herbert Hoover's soft hat with curled brim is still referred to as a fedora by the newspapers. By the 1940s it almost seems to be used exclusively for soft felt hats without curled brims, but that could be because the curled-brim style was pretty well done for as a popular style, outside of the Homburg. It was also used for both men's and women's soft felt hats in ads I've researched for the mid-century decades. My gut feeling is that, while it originally referred to a particular style of hat, by the 1920s or perhaps even the late-1910s it was a more generic layman's term for any soft felt hat, probably with a creased crown and pinch, but regardless of brim style.

Brad

 

[Edward]

"The American-style fedora didn't really arrive in the UK & Ireland until the early thirties"

Yet here's a photograph of a famous Irishman wearing a fedora in the 19th century.
https://overdressedandovereducated.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/wildefedora.png

Touche! :lol: I presume it's a photo of Oscar Wilde? (I'm currently in Beijing, and internet access is a bit spotty at times).

That aside, the most popular men's headgear, by far, from the latter 19th century through WWI, was the bowler.
Photographic evidence of the latter 19th century "American west" shows the bowler to be the most common headgear, even among "cowboys", at least for formal occasions, as posed photographs might be considered to be.
All of this probably resulted in the upper crust abandoning what had become "everyman's" hat for the homburg.
Large fedoras, at this same time, had become something of a popular "trademark" of artistic and bohemian types, particularly Italians, as can be seen from photographs of the likes of Oscar Wilde, Giuseppe Verdi, Giacomo Puccini, and others.

I've read that the bowler was the most common hat in the Old West (yet another thing Hollywood got wrong!). The movement in terms of formality was the other way around, though: the bowler / Coke was originally invented as a groundskeeper's hat, and was assuredly a working man's hat, which was later elevated to formality as the masses abandoned traditional dressing. Of course, you might have to adjust for different social shifts on different sides of the Atlantic.

There certainly were wide-brimmed hats around over here much earlier, but very much for the rare, Bohemian sort, not in any senses a norm. I think I read somewhere that Oscar affected his wide-brimmed when he returned home after his first trip to the US, but I could be wrong on that (I know he did ham up the 'traditional European dress' big time for the Americans, though!). In the sense of the fedora as we would now know it, though, it was really the early thirties when they started to be seen more this side of the pond.

Fedora is an American hat term from the late 1800s. Men's Fedoras were similsr to Homburgs (an Anglo hat term from about the same time period). I am not sure when Snap Brim soft felt hats started bring called Fedora but it was later (60s? 70s?). As I mentioned previously check out the threads started by RLK / Robert on the origin / evolution of the Fedora. Also I suggest taking Alan's advice and checking out the Homburg and Bowler threads. Also some of the views on this thread are heavily American / Anglo biased.

The two sides of the Atlantic definitely had very different histories at that point (it's really been the modern media, and especially the web, that has exacerbated commonality across much of the globe in recent decades).

It appears to have been a gradual transformation before mid-century. The term fedora seems to be used interchangeably for soft felt hats with either curled or snap brims by the 1930s. I've run across references to it being used for snap-brims in the early-1930s, but in 1929, for example, Herbert Hoover's soft hat with curled brim is still referred to as a fedora by the newspapers. By the 1940s it almost seems to be used exclusively for soft felt hats without curled brims, but that could be because the curled-brim style was pretty well done for as a popular style, outside of the Homburg. It was also used for both men's and women's soft felt hats in ads I've researched for the mid-century decades. My gut feeling is that, while it originally referred to a particular style of hat, by the 1920s or perhaps even the late-1910s it was a more generic layman's term for any soft felt hat, probably with a creased crown and pinch, but regardless of brim style.

Brad

Interesting how the language changes, isn't it? You see much the same thing in popular English in the UK, with 'trilby' being the more common term than fedora, outside of enthusiasts circles, at least. Probably still varies a bit even in our circles on here - I have a Campdraft Deluxe that I bashed into a fedora shape; some would still call it a Western, some would call it a fedora....

 

[JackieMatra]

Yes, it's a portrait of Oscar Wilde.

The word fedora comes from the title of an 1882 play by dramatist Victorien Sardou, Fédora, written for Sarah Bernhardt. The play was first performed in the United States in 1889. Bernhardt played Princess Fédora, the heroine of the play. During the play, Bernhardt wore a center-creased, soft brimmed hat. The hat was fashionable for women and the women's rights movement adopted it as a symbol. After Prince Edward of Britain started wearing them in 1924, it became popular among men for its stylishness and its ability to protect the wearer's head from the wind and weather.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora

The hat's name derives from the stage adaptation of George du Maurier's 1894 novel Trilby; a hat of this style was worn in the first London production of the play, and promptly came to be called "a Trilby hat".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilby

 

[Brad Bowers]

Wikipedia is reporting on the conventional wisdom, and in this case conventional wisdom is wrong. The fedora was always a men's hat, the first one being offered for sale in New York by Knox in the fall of 1883. As a model/style with the name "Fedora," it was regularly offered my hat manufacturers throughout the 1880s onward, though it gained even more popularity starting in the 1890s.





The Stetson ad is from 1897.

Brad

 

[alanfgag]

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?48956-Fedoras-in-the-19th-Century

 

[mayserwegener]

It appears to have been a gradual transformation before mid-century. The term fedora seems to be used interchangeably for soft felt hats with either curled or snap brims by the 1930s. I've run across references to it being used for snap-brims in the early-1930s, but in 1929, for example, Herbert Hoover's soft hat with curled brim is still referred to as a fedora by the newspapers. By the 1940s it almost seems to be used exclusively for soft felt hats without curled brims, but that could be because the curled-brim style was pretty well done for as a popular style, outside of the Homburg. It was also used for both men's and women's soft felt hats in ads I've researched for the mid-century decades. My gut feeling is that, while it originally referred to a particular style of hat, by the 1920s or perhaps even the late-1910s it was a more generic layman's term for any soft felt hat, probably with a creased crown and pinch, but regardless of brim style.

Brad

Is there any written evidence regarding the last statement? From what I can remember the info Robert found showed the Fedora as curled brim hat fairly late but I would have to go through what he posted.

Also I have never come across Fedora in any pre WWII German or Austrian documentation (trade newspapers, hat advertisements). I assume this was the same for other major continental European hat producing countries. Same applies for the Homburg. In Germany and Austria they would be called Modehut (Fashion hat).

 

[Brad Bowers]

Is there any written evidence regarding the last statement? From what I can remember the info Robert found showed the Fedora as curled brim hat fairly late but I would have to go through what he posted.

No documentation yet for the 'teens/'20s dates, just an educated guess. Since I've found that by the early-1930s the brim curl does not appear to matter anymore as it regards the name of Fedora, with both curled and non-curled brim being called as such, I'm estimating it might have taken an decade to get to that point, if not longer. The overall esthetic seems to be the deciding factor in whether to call a hat a fedora or not. Again, as you've pointed out, we need to keep in mind that this was a general term used by the public, and not really an industry term until much later.

 

[mayserwegener]

No documentation yet for the 'teens/'20s dates, just an educated guess. Since I've found that by the early-1930s the brim curl does not appear to matter anymore as it regards the name of Fedora, with both curled and non-curled brim being called as such, I'm estimating it might have taken an decade to get to that point, if not longer. The overall esthetic seems to be the deciding factor in whether to call a hat a fedora or not. Again, as you've pointed out, we need to keep in mind that this was a general term used by the public, and not really an industry term until much later.

My point is the American Hat industry considered a Fedora a curled brim hat (similar to a Homburg) up to at least 1930 (and some cases later). I am skeptical regarding public use for a snap brim hat unless some evidence can be presented (photo + caption).

As I mentioned I have never come across the term Fedora in any pre WWII German or Austrian hat documentation (trade newspapers, advertisements). It just wasn't used by the their industry or public (as far as I know). I assume this was the case elsewhere in continental Europe.

 

[mayserwegener]

Something I forgot about is the center crease being curcial to the Fedora (also the Homburg). This could account for snap brims with center crease being called Fedoras.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I'm going to make a post with a lot of ads from the 1920s sometime in the next couple of days to show that snap-brim fedoras are being called as such by the late-1920s. Fedora comes to mean more about the crown shape than anything to do with the brim.

 

[mayserwegener]

Looking forward to that!

 

[Lt.hats]

+1

 

[jlee562]

Kudos to Brad and Steve for an enlightening discussion!

 

[alanfgag]

Always. A good spirited battle of the bowler vs. the homburg.

 

[RJR]

 

[KingAndrew]

I am under the impression that bowler/derby/melone hats generally have lower crowns than homburgs, because the homburg needs enough felt to accommodate the classic center dent, which is usually fairly pronounced. I know there were some tall derbies, but I thought they were usually less than the 5.5-6 inches we see in old soft felt hats. Is this true, or am I mistaken? I know Brad, Steven, and Alan all have much more expertise and experience with these hats than I do.

I also have the feeling that snap-brims became popular earlier in America and that the curled brims we associate with the homburg remained popular longer in Europe. Again, I'd love to hear from those who know better whether either of these ideas are accurate.

Thanks.

 

[mayserwegener]

There were stiff felts (America, Europe, UK, ect) with very tall crowns. The English came up with the Bowler but other major hat making countries made improvements and style changes. The curled brim soft felts came from Continental Europe. As I have mentioned I have never come across the terms Fedora or Homburg in any pre WWII German or Austrian hat related documentation (trade papers, advertisements). I am sure the terms might have been known (especially Homburg) but I haven't seen them used. The Fedora (an American hat term) and Homburg (Anglo - American hat term) were soft felt hats with similar curled brims and center crease (yes I know there are some exceptions / confusions). Both styles came from Europe and in the case of the Homburg from PH. Möckel Hutfabrik, Homburg vor der Höhe (Edward VII brought the hat back to England). I have come across many examples of 19th Century German and Austrian dress soft felt snap brim hats. My feeling is most 19th Century and early 20th Century dress soft felt hat trends came from Europe.

 

[mayserwegener]

I also have the feeling that snap-brims became popular earlier in America and that the curled brims we associate with the homburg remained popular longer in Europe. Again, I'd love to hear from those who know better whether either of these ideas are accurate.

Thanks.

In Germany and Austria the Homburg (term used after WWII) was very popular business man / politician hat in the 1950s until the late 1960s. You see soft felt snap brim hats in Germany and Austria going back to the 19th century. It was the same in Italy and France (other European countries). As I mentioned my feeling is most 19th Century and early 20th Century dress soft felt hat trends came from Europe.

The Homburg is associated with Edward VII but he also brought back this hat style.

(It might be worth reading through this tribute even though the translation is rough because it comes from a Austrian prospective.).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/25-anton-pichler-hutfabrik-josef-pitchler-sohne/#entry958

"It is interesting and characteristic, that the deceased King Eduard of England when one saw the Green band hat of factory Pichler his recurring every year, visits in Marienbad at the local Hatter Pistl, bought same and wore all of its outputs and trips in Marienbad.He took some pieces each with London, and this hat was there in court circles so much favor that almost all male members of the English king and the court house carried him mid the same, subsequently, in the fashionable world of London was input."

(This is a A. Pichler hat worn by Edward VII)

 

[KingAndrew]

Steven,

Thanks for the excellent info. I love that picture of Edward VII. His lovely hat certainly has the lines we associate with the homburg style today. It looks like he is also sporting a decorative brush like the ones often seen on Tyrolean hats. Since both styles originate in Germany and Austria, it makes sense to see the brush on both.

Based on you post, it looks like crown height won't help Ebay shoppers determine if the listed hat is more likely to be a bowler or homburg. I guess that's one more nice theory torpedoed by evidence Science marches on.