Borsalino Dating: Just the Facts, Ma'am

[stylinfedoras]

I have only seen one very old Borsalino in my life. The moment I put that hat in my hand it was obvious that this was a hat of the very highest quality "simply outstanding" and far and away better than the few Borsalinos or any other hat that I presently have in my collection.

I say this only to confirm that this is one aspect of evaluation that cannot be determined from a picture on eBay. It has to be seen to be believed.

A sad but unfortunate truth.

One question remains did Borsalino make different levels of quality in the old days or only one quality??

And as long as we are trying to find a way of determining how to date a hat why can't we use this quality factor as a method of helping us to do this?

 

[feltfan]

I have only seen one very old Borsalino in my life.

How old is very old?

One question remains did Borsalino make different levels of quality in the old days or only one quality??

And as long as we are trying to find a way of determining how to date a hat why can't we use this quality factor as a method of helping us to do this?

I have posted pictures of Superiore, Extra Superiore, Extra Extra Superiore,
and Suprema quality Borsalinos. Others have posted hats with different
rankings. Borsalino also used an "X" system at some point (the 1950s
would be my guess).

It is my observation, based on the few hats I own and some I have seen here
that Borsalino was not immune to the changes in felt quality and style
over the years. Mind you, I'd fall all over myself for a good 70s Borsalino.
But I'd eat that 70s Borsalino for a quality 30s Borsalino. What I'm
saying is, quality ranking by itself may not be of much use either as
an indication of age or *relative* quality.

Personally, I'd go with blocking style, ribbon style, liner, and
sweat band. Borsalino felt, until the end, was always disarmingly nice.

Does everyone have a copy of "Men's Hats (Bella Cosa Library)" from
Chronicle Books by Campione? That's the closest thing to a guide to
Borsalino styles I know, incomplete though it is...

 

[stylinfedoras]

How old is very old?

That’s a tough call to make as I saw no unusual markings inside the hat nor was the style indicative of a particular time period except to say I don’t think it was newer than 1950. I would guess 1930’s but this is hardly an educated guess. But I have seen many Borsalinos and this hat was so different from them it has to be what I said and that is old.

I have to make a point though that anyone who has a fondness for hats could clearly see that the quality this hat had was in a different league than what one is accustomed to seeing. The individual who was trying to sell me the hat could have cared less as he was only trying to get rid of a hat that no one wanted. If it had been in my size, I would have bought it.

I am sorry I didn’t as his price was only $25.00 and if I owned that hat today I could at least spend the time appreciating and contemplating its beauty as a great hat. The Borsalinos made today that I have seen for sale I wouldn’t even wear.

Which brings to mind another individual I met a few years back, who claimed to be able to make a hat better than any Borsalino ever made. I fell for his line and made a purchase and although the hat is nice in its own way it is not the equal of even an ordinary Borsalino let alone a vintage one.

 

[squid]

Which brings to mind another individual I met a few years back, who claimed to be able to make a hat better than any Borsalino ever made. I fell for his line and made a purchase and although the hat is nice in its own way it is not the equal of even an ordinary Borsalino let alone a vintage one.

Who would make a claim like that? I want to make sure I never give them any money.

 

[stylinfedoras]

Who would make a claim like that? I want to make sure I never give them any money.

This is a rather long story so I will try to keep it simple. First off he is no longer operating out of a store front but I suppose could be doing business out of his house. I have to admit he was a class operation and walking into his shop rather swept me off my feet.

He had stacks of felt bodies and shelves of hat blocks and all the contraptions for fitting any first class store should have. His specialty probably was western hats but he had samples of many period style hats available on the shelves for display.

I should have been wary as he totally took me under his wing and probably would have talked to me all day if I would have let him. Anyway he gave me his pitch and then I agreed to make a purchase and so he fitted me up and gave me a lead time for delivery.

This is the part I don't understand. You can attend gun shows here in Calif. and there is most always someone there making hats up on the spot. Why is there all this ceremony involved in making up a hat from hat-makers? If the materials are in front of you, why should it take 3 or 4 months to finish a hat?

I'm not taking about a backlog of orders in which case you would have to wait your turn. But I am only talking about how much time it takes to finish a hat. In my case with this particular order his lead time was 2 months. OK fine and dandy maybe it will be a better hat because of the wait. But some 3 months later still no hat had been delivered. I try to call this guy up and realize that he in no longer in business and has left no forwarding address.

I tried several methods of contacting this person with no luck and had rather written it all off. At the end of 4 months to the day the hat was delivered to my door. Will miracles never cease.

It may not be a Borsalino nor a very good copy of the sample hat I gave to him to follow but I can say it was a perfect fit and I mean perfect!!! For me it is more of an outdoor hat rather than for dress. And that is alright as I have a place in my life for an outdoor hat too.

 

[Visigoth]

Hm. Well, there's one guy out there who famously announces that his hats are better than vintage Borsalinos. Your guy's initials wouldn't have been C.S. by any chance...

 

[MattC]

Borsalino did make different quality hats

At any given point, Borsalino made hats of all different quality levels. As near as I can tell, they didn't have consistent "lines" though (like Stetson's Royal, Royal DeLuxe, Imperial). The "extra" and "extra, extra" etc appear in some of their better hats, but not all (in my exp, those designations are most likely to be found in hats sold in Italy). And as with Stetson, an early 50s "extra" usually beats a 60s "extra extra" hands down.

The way to tell with Borsos was the price. And now its with the feel.

 

[stylinfedoras]

Hm. Well, there's one guy out there who famously announces that his hats are better than vintage Borsalinos. Your guy's initials wouldn't have been C.S. by any chance...

I found this post from the company I speak of herin is the tale:

6/1/2005
D BAR J Hat Company FOR SALE

Letter from David Johnson, Owner:

To my friends, hat wearers, and those that I’ve known for all these long years, greetings.

As many of you know, my health has been deteriorating for sometime now. Several years ago I suffered a stroke outside of Reno , Nev. , and have been consistently ill ever since. This past January I was hospitalized with severe pneumonia. While doing my blood work, they realized that my white and red blood counts were very abnormal. Nonetheless, they sent me home with a pocket full of medication. When I went to see a new Doctor, he immediately knew the problem was larger than we had originally thought. After numerous X-Rays, CAT scans, blood draws, MRI ’s, and everything else you can imagine, they finally found the problem: pre-leukemia. In short, leukemia is a cancer of the blood cells that originates in the bone marrow, the soft, spongy inner portion of certain bones. They ran more tests and a biopsy on my stomach tumors (turned out benign.) But my struggle is only beginning. Every six months I must have my blood and stomach checked as I am at an extremely high risk of everything becoming cancerous (blood and stomach.) My doctor informed me that I have to quit my job to lessen the stress in my life and get away from the chemicals associated to my work.

I started D Bar J when I was 32 years old, I’m now 47. I’ve been named Best Hatter in the World by Cowboy.com for two years in a row, and Best Hatter in the U.S. for the past six. I’ve seen SASS rise from its roots to what it is now. I’ve watched this sport add years of life to some of my closest friends. I’ve made hats for some of our Western heroes, including Roy Rogers. Through it all, this business has thrived on integrity. I’ve given this business my all; my life, my wife, and my health. Hopefully someone will continue to build the legacy. The price is $600,000.00. The machines and tools are worth that alone, and yes, the sales support the price. The trademark name adds value throughout the world; I do not think you can attend a cowboy shoot or rodeo without seeing a D Bar J Hat. I will give six months of my time to the buyer so that the knowledge of plant setup can be passed on. In addition, I will also give at least one year of consulting.

I, David Johnson, must step down from the world of hat making. It’s been a great run. Anyone looking to hire a 47-year-old businessman, give me a ring!

 

[Fedora]

I really would like to get beneath the proprietary processes and find out how they did it.
__________________

You know, Stetson aged the furs(don't know for how long" and this may also have been part of the aging that Borsalino used.) Then using the aged fur, they made the bodies. Then, they aged the bodies for a year. I know Stetson aged the fur in the basement, if I recall correctly. In today's fast money, quick turnover mentality, no one would even consider aging, or tying up inventory for 4 years. That is no longer "good business" Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

Then, they aged the bodies for a year. I know Stetson aged the fur in the basement, if I recall correctly. In today's fast money, quick turnover mentality, no one would even consider aging, or tying up inventory for 4 years. That is no longer "good business" Fedora

I had heard about Stetson and a few others aging the fur itself. It actually makes sense and plays right into my assumption about "aging" being crucial and your theory about "dead felt." I suppose they could have used the Paul Mason line: We will sell no hat before its time. The fact that the old process is not going to be used guarantees that the hats will never have the same qualities as those made decades ago when they were willing to wait. [huh] :eusa_doh: I suppose hat bodies could still be aged but without the aged fur to start with, how much difference would that alone make? [huh]

Regards,

J

 

[Mr. Rover]

What if Graham and other hatters bought their felt bodies for a season but always set aside a portion of it to be stored. If these bodies were stored for a few years and then sold at a later date as the "Optimo Aged Line" or something like that, then you could get that aged felt....sorta. Anyways, I'm not making much sense...Sugar high, yknow?

 

[jamespowers]

What if Graham and other hatters bought their felt bodies for a season but always set aside a portion of it to be stored. If these bodies were stored for a few years and then sold at a later date as the "Optimo Aged Line" or something like that, then you could get that aged felt....sorta. Anyways, I'm not making much sense...Sugar high, yknow?

Aging really begins with the felter so I doubt that we can blame the hatter or get them to just set aside bodies for a year or so. I think the aged fur and later the aged body would likely make more of a difference in the finished product. If you could get the felters to produce bodies like this then you would likely accomplish a "vintage felt" acceptable for comparison in an apples to apples way. However, I wouldn't be beyond an aged body experiment.
A high quality blend or high quality pure beaver would probably yield decent results. Emphasis on high quality.
If you could get Stetson and Borsalino to do this in a limited way then we could really have an interesting experiment. I am sure they have the capabilities if they wanted to do it. The results couldn't be any worse than what they produce now. Then if we could get them to produce a Cavanagh Edge on that body well.......:eusa_clap

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

I suppose hat bodies could still be aged but without the aged fur to start with, how much difference would that alone make?

I am certainly no expert on this. There may very well be a difference in a hat made from aged carroted fur, than one made from fresh, unaged fur. I do not know enough to really draw a conclusion. But, there had to be a reason that they aged the carroted fur. Why tie up processed furs in inventory when it would have been cheaper not to do so. Yeah, logic tells me there must be something to the ageing process. I can see how aging a hat body for a year could stabilize the felt once it was felted, at least in a theorectical fashion. It makes sense.


I recall reading once that when the fur trade was opened up in North America, the best beaver fur came from beaver robes certain tribes of Indian wore. One reason was most of the guard hair had fallen off, and the other may very well have been that these robes were aged.

I do think that ageing, even after the hat is made would have positive consequences. But, most of us do not want to buy a new hat, and then store it for a few years before we wear it. lol Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I do think that ageing, even after the hat is made would have positive consequences. But, most of us do not want to buy a new hat, and then store it for a few years before we wear it. lol Fedora

By the time the hat is produced, it is too late---especially any of the new factory production hats of today (Stetson, Borsalino et. al). I doubt aging them for 100 years would make a difference. They would still fade and not shed water. [huh]

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

By the time the hat is produced, it is too late---especially any of the new factory production hats of today (Stetson, Borsalino et. al). I doubt aging them for 100 years would make a difference.

I agree. Ageing rarely turns garbage into jewels. The alchemy doesn't work that way. But, I think if you took a Stetson, one of the better ones, and aged it for 50 years, even that felt would mellow out some. I doubt if the difference would be monumental though. As far as I know, age improves fur, but does not accomplish miracles. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I agree. Ageing rarely turns garbage into jewels.

lol lol lol that was sort of my point. What you start with is what you end up with.

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

What you start with is what you end up with.

No I don't agree completely, I think aging would actually improve the felt, somewhat. How much is the question. But, aging a modern Stetson will not yield a hat on par with what we are currently getting from ebay in the vintage hats. Aging some of the better felt around by storing them would improve the felt, IMHO. I certainly think it would make them more taper resistant, as I am not buying into the theory that the vintage hats, when new were taper proof. Otherwise, there would have been no reblock and refurb service around back in the early and mid 20th century. That these shops were prolific(if you include the dry cleaners), is a testament to that, I think. Otherwise there would have been no demand. Where there is smoke, there is a fire. I think this is logical and logic has a way of disposing newly created myths. That is, if you give any credence to logic. lol I think we also do not give enough importance to the use of mercury in hatmaking. All of those pre-1947 hats were made, using mercury. I have read this stuff would even make a pure rabbit hat feel like a more expensive beaver hat. And that may very well be part of the equation. If mercury made better felt, then I think we can assume hats made after it was banned are inferior. Since we have no true experts here, as none of us actually made felt back in the old days, we may never know the complete truth of the matter. That gives lots of room for conjecture, which is fun. It also gives us a great environment for new myths to arise regarding felt and hats. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I certainly think it would make them more taper resistant, as I am not buying into the theory that the vintage hats, when new were taper proof. Otherwise, there would have been no reblock and refurb service around back in the early and mid 20th century. That these shops were prolific(if you include the dry cleaners), is a testament to that, I think. Otherwise there would have been no demand. Where there is smoke, there is a fire. I think this is logical and logic has a way of disposing newly created myths. That is, if you give any credence to logic. lol Fedora

You can easily dispense with the number of hat services within any ncommunity rather easily. It wasn't so much about taper as it was about keeping the hat looking fresh and nice. In those days not everyone had 100 hats to change off with everyday. They had more like three if they were lucky. One or two were your everyday hat while they held one back for special occassions. When you wear a hat everyday it becomes soiled no matter what you do. Ribbons become loose or worn and so do sweatbands and liners. Liners also become dirty---especially with pomade and such. There is a veritable plethora of things that a hat worn everyday can need. They were probably pretty fastidious about how their hats looked too. much more so than now; I am sure. The hat you wore defined you just as the clothes you wore because it was literally at the top of the image. It was like a trademark or a stupid baseball cap with logos on it today. Figuring the population of New York---even back then, you could easily employ a dozen or more hatters.
You always need blocks for cleaning---not only to nail out taper. I also forgot about hats that just plain need to be cleaned to get the "funk" out.

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

It wasn't so much about taper as it was about keeping the hat looking fresh and nice.

Ah, please point me to your source kind sir. I would love to read what was said about this. I do agree folks refurbed their hats as well as re-soled their shoes. We used to have 3 shoe repair shops here when I was a kid and now we have just one left. So, I agree that hats were refurbished, but do not know if these same hats decided to dispense of the very action(shrinking) that is a prime factor in the felting process. Felt can shrink up to a certain point, and cannot shrink any further. Since all felt hats start out as cones, if you shrink that cone until it no longer will shrink, you have a dunce hat. A very dense dunce hat. To turn this cone into a hat requires shrinking in specific areas of the cone. But, if the cone has been fully felted, we have a problem. No more shrinkage to be had. So, assuming the cone is fully felted, we have to stretch the cone, at the top, in order to form a hat. Now, the fully felted cone is stretched. And being still alive, the fur, it wants to shrink back down. By what magic did they defy the laws of nature? That is what I am interested in. Was there a magic potion involved? That enticed the felt to no longer felt back? I do not think there was. I think the cone was stretched over a block, dried and ironed, and supposedly this drying and ironing "set" the shape. And it does, as I can say that through personal experience. A variable comes into play here. And that variable is the size of that completely felted cone. The less you have to stretch that cone, the less future felting(shrinking) will take place. If you use a large fully felted cone, and stretch it very, very little, you may never have taper. Logical. I think due to the economy of that hat industry today, perhaps smaller cones are used for dress hats, and you have to stretch these cones too much to make a hat. That would certainly be a factor, if this is true. I do not know.


Here is another scenerio. Perhaps cones are not fully felted when they are then passed on to make the hat. Perhaps it is easier to make a hat, using a not fully felted cone. In that way, the cone can still shrink, which would be very conducive in making it fit the block very tightly. Of course, in this scenerio, the felt never reached the point of stopping the felting(shrinkage) and if you make a hat from this body, it will sooner rather than later start to felt again and shrink.

Throw in the idea that dead felt does not react to its environment like live felt and you complicate the issue. I am just thinking out loud here and trying to use some logic. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

Ah, please point me to your source kind sir. I would love to read what was said about this. I do agree folks refurbed their hats as well as re-soled their shoes. We used to have 3 shoe repair shops here when I was a kid and now we have just one left. So, I agree that hats were refurbished, but do not know if these same hats decided to dispense of the very action(shrinking) that is a prime factor in the felting process.

Funny you should mention shoes. The person I got this from is now a shoe repair business but before that he and his father ran a full service hat shop for over twenty years. He is the one who told me what most people brought hats in for. Having done it for a good part of his adult life, I will take it directly from a source rather than a second hand account from another second hand account. [huh]
I didn't say that the hats never shrunk or tapered even one iota. I am saying that they wouldn't shrink after the first good rain or even going through the fog. I understand the felting process and have read the books that describe it. However, the felting process of years ago and that of today is different due to restrictions on the use of certain chemicals in the process. Mercury being one of them. Aging the fur and then the completed body being another factor, I wonder if processing the fur as such and then aging the body later contributed to the better felted body so that it wouldn't revert back to its cone shape. If the fur in the felt is aged and the barbs on the hairs are tightly interlocked so that there is no room for further felting then it is likely not going to shrink when made into a hat. Allowing the felt body to settle for a while before making it into a hat should contribute as well.
We have to remember that the felting process cannot be rushed either. Forcing it to felt together and interlock faster than it is ready to do will create lined areas or clumps in the felt called a push. I have seen this in a few modern hats---albeit in the inside of the hat. Fifty years ago they would throw these away and not make a hat out of it. :eusa_doh: This shows me that the felting process is being rushed today as well and that cannot be good for the finished product either. [huh] I am sure there are several other factors but when put all together the way it was done fifty years ago made felt more water resistant and taper resistant. It is just provably different.

Regards,

J