Borsalino Dating: Just the Facts, Ma'am

[Fedora]

I am sure there are several other factors but when put all together the way it was done fifty years ago made felt more water resistant and taper resistant. It is just provably different.

Well, not quite. In order to prove this, one would have to do so 50 years from now. Take a high quality body made today, turn it into a hat, and then let it sit for 50 years. If it tapered once it got wet, then the theory would be proven. But, we can't do that today. If the hat was taper resistant at that time, 50 years from now, then we could conclude that dead felt versus live felt was a factor .

On the pushing, I have seen one body from Argentina that was pushed. That was enough for me to turn them down as a supplier. You can't pounce, or iron out those push marks.. . I tried it!!! lol

I wonder if processing the fur as such and then aging the body later contributed to the better felted body so that it wouldn't revert back to its cone shape. If the fur in the felt is aged and the barbs on the hairs are tightly interlocked so that there is no room for further felting then it is likely not going to shrink when made into a hat

I think the ageing actually was done for the finish and feel of the felt, but I do not know, for certain. I can see how aging the body would interlock the fur better, due to the fur absorbing the humidity, and then drying, and doing this over and over again, thereby shrinking even more. One of the old ways of refurbing a hat involved steaming the body, pulling it over the block, letting the steam dry out, ironing it, pouncing it, and then wetting the pounced hat again and letting it dry naturally to take up the looseness that the pouncing created. So, this seems to be close to what would happen to a stored, aged body. A natural tightening of the fur. But, with that said, the aged body in the factory would still have to have that completely felted felt stretched out in upper areas of the crown. And the question still is, what allowed that stetched felt to not contract, reverting somewhat to the cone, when the iron job was null and voided due to a saturation of the felt, and then a re-drying? Not to shrink, defies the law of felting. And that is the reason the dead felt idea struck me as plausible. Love this stuff JP.

 

[jamespowers]

Well, not quite. In order to prove this, one would have to do so 50 years from now. Take a high quality body made today, turn it into a hat, and then let it sit for 50 years. If it tapered once it got wet, then the theory would be proven. But, we can't do that today. If the hat was taper resistant at that time, 50 years from now, then we could conclude that dead felt versus live felt was a factor .

On the pushing, I have seen one body from Argentina that was pushed. That was enough for me to turn them down as a supplier. You can't pounce, or iron out those push marks.. . I tried it!!! lol

I dunno. If you took a Stetson from today and aged it for fifty years, I doubt it would get any better than the Stetson produced fifty years back from the present. I'll go buy a Stetson Temple right now and that bet is on.
Push bodies are junk. It just tells you that they do not know how to felt a body right. You really can't get rid of a push just as you noticed. That is why the factory threw those away without even trying. lol Dobbs tried using some of those for their hobo hats. They weren't really blocked and flanged though. They were really just bodies with a logo on it.

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

dunno. If you took a Stetson from today and aged it for fifty years, I doubt it would get any better than the Stetson produced fifty years back from the present. I'll go buy a Stetson Temple right now and that bet is on.

I hope you do that, as you are probably young enough to see the results. I think even that low quality Stetson would be more taper resistant than it was when new, but until someone actually does the test, we will not know-for sure. If time affects fur, in the same manner than time affects everything, I think it is logical to assume there would be a difference in the felt, even of that cheap Stetson. Now, what that difference is, would tell the tale. To me, there is a correlation between live fur, and live rubber, when you throw in the age factor. Time takes the elasticity our of rubber, and it very well may take the elasticity out of fur fibers that will not longer retract back, after being stretched. That has so much logic in it, that is is sickening. After looking at this whole taper issue with vintage versus modern felt, and if I rule out black magic, there has to be an age issue here, and what age does to fur felt. I know it is politically correct here, on this board to ascribe super hero characteristics to old felt, but I am after answers, without becoming goo goo eyed and just saying, all modern felt is junk........cause it tapers faster than vintage felt. If one does not consider all of the factors, this may very well be a statement equal to "a tale told by a idiot".

I am seriously interested in this and the more that I learn, the more questions I have. Otherwise, I might just invent a theory that states modern felt tapers due to the genetically engineered fur that grows like corn plants. An organic, synthetic, oxymoron. lol Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I hope you do that, as you are probably young enough to see the results. I think even that low quality Stetson would be more taper resistant than it was when new, but until someone actually does the test, we will not know-for sure. If time affects fur, in the same manner than time affects everything, I think it is logical to assume there would be a difference in the felt, even of that cheap Stetson. Now, what that difference is, would tell the tale. To me, there is a correlation between live fur, and live rubber, when you throw in the age factor. Time takes the elasticity our of rubber, and it very well may take the elasticity out of fur fibers that will not longer retract back, after being stretched. That has so much logic in it, that is is sickening. After looking at this whole taper issue with vintage versus modern felt, and if I rule out black magic, there has to be an age issue here, and what age does to fur felt. I know it is politically correct here, on this board to ascribe super hero characteristics to old felt, but I am after answers,

We are all after answers. I am sure aging makes a difference as well. I just place more importance on it being done in the beginning of the hat's life and not at the end. How a hat starts is usually a good measure of how it ends.
I am positive that a modern Stetson would not be much more taper resistant because it didn't start out as being concerned with it in the first place. It also didn't start out worried about wear and resistance to weather. If the color will run now, I doubt time wil make much of a difference if it does later. The same is likely true about the felt bodies they start with.
I am looking for answers as well because better hats mean more satisifed customers and thus more people interested in a hat because it will hold up over time. The money invested will seem well spent if they can use it for years and years to come. Paying $100 for a hat that needs complete refurbishment in a year is not a good deal.
Aging is likely in the mix. If it actually gets better with age as you are saying then that will work for me too. Just tell me how .

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

I am positive that a modern Stetson would not be much more taper resistant because it didn't start out as being concerned with it in the first place.

I wish I could be positive as well. I am not positive(as that would be intellectually dishonest) that a new Stetson aged 50 years would not be taper resistant. Admit it, you actually do not know. Things that folks are positive about require proof. And of course, that idea you submitted is not provable, unless you have access to a time machine. I detect an emotional agenda here.


Look, I want to know about the taper issue. The issue of finish on vintage versus modern felt is not an issue with me, because I know that modern felt can have just as nice a finish as vintage felt. I also think that the idea of the felt being felted better back then is not the reason vintage hats are taper proof. I think it is due to the age of the hat. Not the aging that took place prior to making the hat. I think that added a mellowness to the felt, made it feel different than new, green felt. Or perhaps it made the body or fur, absorb the dye better. I do not know, and neither do you, or you would have referenced the source a long time ago. So, limited as we are in knowledge, this becomes a breeding ground for grand suppositions. The most popular is, "well, the factories making felt today do not know how to do it."

I think that is not the truth. I have seen modern felt that was as fine and excellent of some of the vintage stuff you see, and better looking than most of the less expensive lines of vintage hats. I think this modern felt was made on the exact same machines used in the old days. I do not subscribe to black magic, long lost secrets of feltmaking, etc. That is fantasy, although interesting fantasy, as we seem to love conspiracy theories. After having thought about this for a long time, I received a vintage hat, that the guy wanted it turned into an Indy fedora. The original block shape to this hat was a tapered block, but it was plenty tall enough to still get an Indy height hat from. I knew I would have to stretch out the top as my Indy blocks are fuller than most blocks, straight sided. Now, up until this point, there is one thing that I had noticed over the years of blocking new hats for folks. I seemed to see two major types of felt. One type of felt was stretch resistant. In re-blocking a hat of this sort, it really required some exerted pulling, to get the felt to stretch over the crown block. The reason of course, was the felt was very densely felted. It did not want to stretch. All felt that is dense has felted properly for the type of fur used. This type of felt, the denser sort, will keep the shape longer than a porous felt. Now, to the porous felt. The other type of modern felt that I see is the porous sort. This porous felt is amazing. Once you steam it up good and hot, and pull it over the block, it stretches easily, in fact, it is ungodly how this sort of felt will stretch. You can literally stretch a 4 inch crown out to 6 inches with little effort. I made a discovery. The stretching porous felt was great to use to make Indy hats, but they would shrink and taper like crazy the first time they got damp. Not wet, but damp, and then allowed to dry. I have seen this many times over the last 6 years.

Believe it or not, this observation led me to the idea that the vintage hats taper resistance was not so much related to the felt itself, but the age factor. Why? Read on. I have since that time used some vintage bodies that were of the stretchy porous kind of felt. Guess what? They were taper resistant after the reblock. I know, because two of them are mine. Although I stretched out the crowns on both, and this was the taper prone porous type of felt, they did not taper when wet!!! What was the differnence? Oh, about 50 years of time. But heck, any of you guys, do not take my word for this. Try it yourself. Therefore, to me, the age factor carries alot of weight with me.

Look all hatters know that a felt body that will stretch easily will also shrink easily. That is common knowledge. I had noticed this, and mentioned it to another well known hatter, and he was kind enough not to make fun of me because I had just discovered it. But, I was teaching myself, with little help at the time.

We have to logically assume that vintage stretchy felt(which was a lower quality felt even back then) would act exactly the same as modern stretchy felt. But it does not. What is the difference? The age. Fedora

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Not to be a pest, but I'd still like some more pointers for determining when my Borsalinos were made.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10983
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10990
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10685

 

[jamespowers]

Not to be a pest, but I'd still like some more pointers for determining when my Borsalinos were made.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10983
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10990
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10685

Ok, ok. The first one I have no idea about since I have never seen such a liner and markings. It is nothing like my German Borsalino either.
The second two I would like to see pictures of the liners and sweat to be sure and the last is probably 40s-50s. I have a 1957 dated Borsalino like that in black.

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

Borsalino Dating: Just the Facts, Ma'am

My opinion is that is a fine old family, and dating one of them would be a step up for ya.lol I say........go for it. Is she a pretty lady? Ok, I just could not help myself. Watching Seinfeld just now must have influenced me. Fedora

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Ok, ok.
The second two I would like to see pictures of the liners and sweat to be sure

Could you be more specific? There is a closeup of one of the liner logoes (they're both identical) and some pretty decent shots of the sweatbands already in that thread. Did I miss something important?

Thanks for the help. Yeah, that Saigon - Pnom Penh Borsa sure is different. I've never seen a hattery's logo on the liner before, only on the sweatband.

 

[feltfan]

Could you be more specific? There is a closeup of one of the liner logoes (they're both identical) and some pretty decent shots of the sweatbands already in that thread. Did I miss something important?

Are those "nothing but *verified* facts" as required by
this thread? I have my guesses, educated or not, too,
but I'll save 'em for another thread. I don't mean to be
obnoxious (at least this time). I admire the goal of this
thread- to try to nail down a few verifiable facts to start to come
up with a timeline for Borsalino hats.

Thanks for the help. Yeah, that Saigon - Pnom Penh Borsa sure is different. I've never seen a hattery's logo on the liner before, only on the sweatband.

Actually, you have. Take another look at my
thread on the three Borsalinos:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10716

In the second picture, the one of the liner of the brown
"pocket hat", you'll see the name of the store, Minelli's of Florence.
I wonder if it was a Borsalino policy to co-label with certain stores
or if it was perhaps an Italian thing to do?

 

[jamespowers]

I wish I could be positive as well. I am not positive(as that would be intellectually dishonest) that a new Stetson aged 50 years would not be taper resistant. Admit it, you actually do not know. Things that folks are positive about require proof. And of course, that idea you submitted is not provable, unless you have access to a time machine. I detect an emotional agenda here.

Ah but i think you have an agenda as well unless you have a time machine to go back 5o years. I will address that further later in the message though. I really have no agenda. I am positive that the modern Stetsons are provably inferior to their predecessors. This includes water resistance, resistance to wear, materials used, color fading and a host of other factors. Knowing that and extending it fifty years into the future is not hard to do as I can hold the new hat fresh from the factory. Simple enough. [huh]

Look, I want to know about the taper issue. The issue of finish on vintage versus modern felt is not an issue with me, because I know that modern felt can have just as nice a finish as vintage felt. I also think that the idea of the felt being felted better back then is not the reason vintage hats are taper proof. I think it is due to the age of the hat. Not the aging that took place prior to making the hat. I think that added a mellowness to the felt, made it feel different than new, green felt. Or perhaps it made the body or fur, absorb the dye better. I do not know, and neither do you, or you would have referenced the source a long time ago. So, limited as we are in knowledge, this becomes a breeding ground for grand suppositions. The most popular is, "well, the factories making felt today do not know how to do it."

Ah, but where are your sources? Did you use that time machine to go back fifty years and get a factory fresh body or finished Stetson to compare to a new body or a new Stetson or did you work with a fifty year old body and a fity year old Stetson to compare finishes? Then are we comparing factory hat to factory hat or are we comparing custom to factory? That is apples to oranges if it is custom to factory. It is either custom to custom or factory to factory to make an adequate comparison in felt, finish and resistance to wear. We really don't know. The same factory could use different methods fifty years apart even if they still use the same machinery---which is obviously worn and not new. Even that could make a huge difference. I don't understand how aging after the hat is made is any different than aging the fur and later the body before the hat is made. Age is age. We know that mcuh.

I think that is not the truth. I have seen modern felt that was as fine and excellent of some of the vintage stuff you see, and better looking than most of the less expensive lines of vintage hats. I think this modern felt was made on the exact same machines used in the old days. I do not subscribe to black magic, long lost secrets of feltmaking, etc. That is fantasy, although interesting fantasy, as we seem to love conspiracy theories. After having thought about this for a long time, I received a vintage hat, that the guy wanted it turned into an Indy fedora. The original block shape to this hat was a tapered block, but it was plenty tall enough to still get an Indy height hat from. I knew I would have to stretch out the top as my Indy blocks are fuller than most blocks, straight sided. Now, up until this point, there is one thing that I had noticed over the years of blocking new hats for folks. I seemed to see two major types of felt. One type of felt was stretch resistant. In re-blocking a hat of this sort, it really required some exerted pulling, to get the felt to stretch over the crown block. The reason of course, was the felt was very densely felted. It did not want to stretch. All felt that is dense has felted properly for the type of fur used. This type of felt, the denser sort, will keep the shape longer than a porous felt. Now, to the porous felt. The other type of modern felt that I see is the porous sort. This porous felt is amazing. Once you steam it up good and hot, and pull it over the block, it stretches easily, in fact, it is ungodly how this sort of felt will stretch. You can literally stretch a 4 inch crown out to 6 inches with little effort. I made a discovery. The stretching porous felt was great to use to make Indy hats, but they would shrink and taper like crazy the first time they got damp. Not wet, but damp, and then allowed to dry. I have seen this many times over the last 6 years.

Believe it or not, this observation led me to the idea that the vintage hats taper resistance was not so much related to the felt itself, but the age factor. Why? Read on. I have since that time used some vintage bodies that were of the stretchy porous kind of felt. Guess what? They were taper resistant after the reblock. I know, because two of them are mine. Although I stretched out the crowns on both, and this was the taper prone porous type of felt, they did not taper when wet!!! What was the differnence? Oh, about 50 years of time. But heck, any of you guys, do not take my word for this. Try it yourself. Therefore, to me, the age factor carries alot of weight with me.

Look all hatters know that a felt body that will stretch easily will also shrink easily. That is common knowledge. I had noticed this, and mentioned it to another well known hatter, and he was kind enough not to make fun of me because I had just discovered it. But, I was teaching myself, with little help at the time.

We have to logically assume that vintage stretchy felt(which was a lower quality felt even back then) would act exactly the same as modern stretchy felt. But it does not. What is the difference? The age. Fedora

We really can't assume anything because you were working with an old body made the old way and not a new body directly from back then. All you know for sure is that it didn't taper for some reason. If you had the same body factory fresh from back then and made a hat today, you do not know that it would not have performed just as well then as it did now due to the different processing back then. The only way to be sure would be to have both brand new and make two of the exact same hat. Testing could then begin from absolute even ground. Age would then be confined only to the body as a starting point. Therefore you could adequately test the same felt factory to see if their processing made the difference for sure. Otherwise we are just guessing fifty years later. [huh] If you then take the old body and do the same experiment today with a new body for comparison and find the same results, then you have found that the felt remains constant, it gets better over time or it gets worse over time. Until we can do both---both of use are guess at opposite ends.
We do know that they aged fur and the bodies if that contributed to vintage hats abiltiy to withstand wear is in question.
We also do not want to compare an Adam or Champ vintage hat to a modern 100% beaver custom and say that we finish our hats better now than they did then. if you want to compare the best tot he best you easily could with a Cavanagh 100 next to the best factory dress hat. i doubt you would be very happy with that apples to apples comparison. Choose anything from Hatco if you would like.

Regards,

J

 

[jamespowers]

Could you be more specific? There is a closeup of one of the liner logoes (they're both identical) and some pretty decent shots of the sweatbands already in that thread. Did I miss something important?

The two homburgs are the subject of the second link. I didn't see the pictures of the inside liners of the hats in the thread. i'll have to go back and check.

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

Ah but i think you have an agenda as well

I do in fact have an agenda. I admit it. I want to discover the exact reason for vintage hats being very taper resistant(even the cheap ones that should not be so), in order to help modern hats. That is all. Knowing what I know about how the better quality modern felt is made, versus vintage felt has not supplied the answers. If you can get some of the industry guys to talk to you, I would suggest you go to the horses mouth and do some serious inquiring. I have. But, I cannot get you in to talk to them, unless you become a hatter, or a maker of hats. You might try to get in touch with Ricardo at Fepsa, as he is in charge of non stock felt orders.(if you are seriously interested in this question) I doubt that you would believe anything that I had to say on the matter.(even if I was quoting him or other guys in the industry.) And given the general attitude of this board, I doubt that most would believe anything he said if it did not agree with what you already think you know. More later, as I have to work on a new hat that has to go out today. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I do in fact have an agenda. I admit it. I want to discover the exact reason for vintage hats being very taper resistant(even the cheap ones that should not be so), in order to help modern hats. That is all. Knowing what I know about how the better quality modern felt is made, versus vintage felt has not supplied the answers. If you can get some of the industry guys to talk to you, I would suggest you go to the horses mouth and do some serious inquiring. I have. But, I cannot get you in to talk to them, unless you become a hatter, or a maker of hats. You might try to get in touch with Ricardo at Fepsa, as he is in charge of non stock felt orders.(if you are seriously interested in this question) I doubt that you would believe anything that I had to say on the matter.(even if I was quoting him or other guys in the industry.) And given the general attitude of this board, I doubt that most would believe anything he said if it did not agree with what you already think you know. More later, as I have to work on a new hat that has to go out today. Fedora

Now that wasn't the tone I was setting. [huh] I would like to know what he said but I also know what he is saying applies only to hat bodies he makes today.
What we really need to do is find hatters from the Golden Era and see what they can tell us before they are all gone. The clock is ticking. That is where my research is concentrated because what is done now just isn't working with the modern factory production hats. Notice I said Modern Factory Production hats. I have not went into the custom end of the market then or now because I think some custom hatters can make a hat that is nearly vintage comparable.
You do not have to be a vintiner to know a good wine. The same can be said of hats. :cheers1:

Regards,

J

 

[jamespowers]

Could you be more specific? There is a closeup of one of the liner logoes (they're both identical) and some pretty decent shots of the sweatbands already in that thread. Did I miss something important?

Thanks for the help. Yeah, that Saigon - Pnom Penh Borsa sure is different. I've never seen a hattery's logo on the liner before, only on the sweatband.

Ok, now I see the liners. :eusa_doh: They were on the far left hand side of the screen and I didn't scroll far enough. The sweatband is reeded instead of sewn directly onto the felt so that suggests 50s or later. The size tag is paper instead of material so that puts it there as well. Does the topper plastic cover have a kind of oil cloth feel or more of a plastic of today feel?
Looks like two great hats no matter when they were made though. I can tell you for sure they weren't made after the Borsalino family sold out and the factory was moved from Allesandria in the 1980s. I think the factory is in Asti now if my memory serves me correctly.

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

What we really need to do is find hatters from the Golden Era and see what they can tell us before they are all gone. The clock is ticking.

I have the source, but it is hard to talk to him if you are not in the business. He is the genuine article. What I need to do is to just go to the factory when I get time and get it from the horses mouth,(tape it on a mini tape recorder) and post his words here. One of the reasons I have not done so, is if it states things that are not already assumed here, I might be wasting my time, because some of the experts here might disagree and ascribe to me an ulterior motive. lol And basically call me a liar. I might have a better chance at converting a radical Islamist to Buddhism.


To end this post, I have had a few real hatters who have read her but decided not to join and post. They see it as a waste of time, because if they told you what they know to be a fact, certain folks would argue with them here, and they just do not want to take the time to argue over things they know to be factual. The experts here(not you JP) actually have kept very knowledgable folks at bay. But, if one keeps up with the hat posts here, to draw another conclusion would be hard to do. It isn't exactly the most "hatter friendly" board on the net. lol Even the member hatters, other than me, will seldom share facts. But, I was an Indy fan and hat wearer prior to making hats, and a longtime member of Indyfan, and COW. So, I stay in the trenches and refuse to wander off. I do the hat thing as a hobby, and because I love the Raiders fedora. No other reason. That is why I practically give beaver hats away, as I think an Indy fedora should sport the best that modern felt has to offer. I am not a hatter trying to make a living off of hats. So if any want to ascribe an ulterior motive to me,(dollar signs) do some research first before you leap. I have researched and experimented with this taper issue that vintage hats seem to fair better at, in the interest of providing the best taper resistant hat available in modern felt. That has led me to the fur dying and therefore not reacting to the environment the way freshly made felt does. It is ridiculously logical, but not completely provable at this point in time. All we need is one old guy who was in the industry to verify this, and that would prove it for me. From what I have seen from working various felts, I think the age factor is the factor in relation to taper resistance, as anytime you stretch felt, it is in a stretched state. We are actually looking for the factor that allows the felt to remain stretched, even after the "set" job is null and void due to moisture being added. Felt by its nature will pull back to what it was prior to the stretching, unless something is done to the fur itself that retards this natural tendency. I have come to the conclusion the only thing it can be is the death of organic fibers, that no longer have the ability to retract. That is about as logical as any argument can get, IMHO. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I have the source, but it is hard to talk to him if you are not in the business. He is the genuine article. What I need to do is to just go to the factory when I get time and get it from the horses mouth,(tape it on a mini tape recorder) and post his words here. One of the reasons I have not done so, is if it states things that are not already assumed here, I might be wasting my time, because some of the experts here might disagree and ascribe to me an ulterior motive. lol And basically call me a liar. I might have a better chance at converting a radical Islamist to Buddhism.


To end this post, I have had a few real hatters who have read her but decided not to join and post. They see it as a waste of time, because if they told you what they know to be a fact, certain folks would argue with them here, and they just do not want to take the time to argue over things they know to be factual. The experts here(not you JP) actually have kept very knowledgable folks at bay. But, if one keeps up with the hat posts here, to draw another conclusion would be hard to do. It isn't exactly the most "hatter friendly" board on the net. lol Even the member hatters, other than me, will seldom share facts. But, I was an Indy fan and hat wearer prior to making hats, and a longtime member of Indyfan, and COW. So, I stay in the trenches and refuse to wander off. I do the hat thing as a hobby, and because I love the Raiders fedora. No other reason. That is why I practically give beaver hats away, as I think an Indy fedora should sport the best that modern felt has to offer. I am not a hatter trying to make a living off of hats. So if any want to ascribe an ulterior motive to me,(dollar signs) do some research first before you leap. I have researched and experimented with this taper issue that vintage hats seem to fair better at, in the interest of providing the best taper resistant hat available in modern felt. That has led me to the fur dying and therefore not reacting to the environment the way freshly made felt does. It is ridiculously logical, but not completely provable at this point in time. All we need is one old guy who was in the industry to verify this, and that would prove it for me. From what I have seen from working various felts, I think the age factor is the factor in relation to taper resistance, as anytime you stretch felt, it is in a stretched state. We are actually looking for the factor that allows the felt to remain stretched, even after the "set" job is null and void due to moisture being added. Felt by its nature will pull back to what it was prior to the stretching, unless something is done to the fur itself that retards this natural tendency. I have come to the conclusion the only thing it can be is the death of organic fibers, that no longer have the ability to retract. That is about as logical as any argument can get, IMHO. Fedora

Well, get the tape recorder and run that guy down. It is later than we think. I would love to hear what the guy has to say. If he was there then he knows something---maybe even something that he thinks is run of the mill that really makes a difference. Something was used that helps the hat keep its shape. I tmight be a combination of factors or just one that is different. I am open to the discussion and if it can be replicated then we are doing the industry, hatters and hat wearers a great service. Can we patent it if we figure it out?
I am certainly not an expert. I am just a hat collector who has seen a few things.
My dream would be to have this kind of a taped interview with John Cavanagh---inventor of the Cavanagh Edge for those who do not know. Now that would be quite an interview. I think I could get him to reveal enough so that we could understand the process better. He probably would say something matter-of-factly that makes all the difference in the world. Too bad I'll never have the chance.
Who would be your dream interview from the hat industry of the golden era? Oh geez, I had better start another thread for that one.

Regards,

J

 

[squid]

I have the source, but it is hard to talk to him if you are not in the business. He is the genuine article. What I need to do is to just go to the factory when I get time and get it from the horses mouth,(tape it on a mini tape recorder) and post his words here. One of the reasons I have not done so, is if it states things that are not already assumed here, I might be wasting my time, because some of the experts here might disagree and ascribe to me an ulterior motive. lol And basically call me a liar. I might have a better chance at converting a radical Islamist to Buddhism.

Who cares what some people say? Capture that information for posterity. It would be great to do it on video. It would be better to capture the process of him making a hat on video.

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Ok, now I see the liners. :eusa_doh: They were on the far left hand side of the screen and I didn't scroll far enough. The sweatband is reeded instead of sewn directly onto the felt so that suggests 50s or later. The size tag is paper instead of material so that puts it there as well. Does the topper plastic cover have a kind of oil cloth feel or more of a plastic of today feel?

Whoops, sorry. On my screen the thumbnails wrap around, I thought they did that for everybody.

The liners do have a woven or an oilcloth look and feel. Definitely not smooth plastic.

Thanks! I love 'em!

 

[Visigoth]

Is there any reason NOT to believe that the first two can be determined by the first two digits of the second number in the serial?