Bill Kelso Leather Photo Review

[Xopher]

Hello Folks,
This may have been done before but Im not sure. As I personally had curiosity about the Bill Kelso Liberty Horse hide, and I know others have aswell in the past, I wanted to share some photos and thoughts about the leathers, the colors, and how they age. I wanted to see how they all age/patina but was having trouble finding photos so here is my attempt to compare.

I photographed all three Liberty Hide colors on a piece of paper to show the color difference. I have Dark Seal, Seal, and Russet. Also on the top right of each swatch I rubbed the dry hides on a wooden table to see how they wear and again after wetting the hide. Here is what I found.

All three colors showed the most wear when rubbed against surfaces while the hides were wet.

Dark Seal: A very very dark brown, almost looks black. The color wore through much quicker than the others, about 1/3 the time and effort as Seal or Russet. Underneath reveals a rich redish brown which I find very pleasing and warm. The leather seemed to be ever so slightly thinner than the other two, a rough estimate is about 1mm to 1.1mm
The surface of this hide seem very similar to the Aero Jerkey Seal, however they aged much differently. The Aero Jerkey (not yet photographed) had a bit of a greyish brown patina and heald its color strongly as apposed to the Liberty Horse of the same color, which shed its color easily but had a very nice reddish patina.

Seal: This seemed to be the hardest aging of the three. It took much more effort and time to make it distress than the Dark Seal or Russet but overall aged much quicker than my Aero smooth and jerkey leather swatches. Underneath was more of natural leather tone. The Seal also did not seem to burnish like the other two, so the patina didnt have much of a gradient or fade. The color was pretty much all on or off if that makes sense. Thickness seemed to be roughly 1.1mm to 1.2mm.

Russet: This one seemed to patina the easiest up to a certain point. By that I mean fingernails brushed light against the surface cause some very minor discoloration which would not have effected the Dark Seal or Seal hides at all. With more aggressive abrasions it would distress more however the color variations were not a sharp contrast. The patina appears to be more of a heathered look not as easily visible from further distances but from 6 feet or so looked balanced and varied with depth but still on the more subtle side. With further abrasion the hide began to darken and retain dirt or stains from the surfaces I rubbed it against. It also seemed to retain some mild water marks that would patina a way. Thickness seems to be 1.1mm to 1.2mm roughly.

For all three leathers there did not appear to be much grain when new, however with just one or two folds the they began to show and retain grain and character.

If anyone has any questions Id be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge. I am no expert and do not have any precise way of measuring but I will do what I can. If anyone else has any patina photos they would like to add to this I would love to see them.

Thanks all.

 

[Superfluous]

@Xopher , you plainly have an enduring interest in BK Liberty HH:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/bk-liberty-hide-questions.93299/

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/liberty-horse-dark-seal-patina.100386/

Thanks for the info.

 

[Xopher]

@Xopher , you plainly have an enduring interest in BK Liberty HH:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/bk-liberty-hide-questions.93299/

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/liberty-horse-dark-seal-patina.100386/

Thanks for the info.

I think that is certainly the case. I have a BK jacket in Victory Hide which I like a lot and I am keen on buying a Waldo Pepper in a hide that will distress well. When I ordered my other jacket I was able to get swatches of the Liberty hide, which I had never gotten to see in person, and with all this extra time I figured why not experiment with them and share my findings in case they might be of use to others. If Aero or Eastman made Waldo Pepper pattern and sent me multiple swatches Im sure I would do the same with those hides.

 

[marker2037]

I wonder if anyone has done this experiment with the black liberty teacore. I don't believe I've seen any black Bill Kelsos with any age on them yet and I'm curious to see that. In fact, the only BK aged liberty horsehide I've seen is Terry's Dodger, really.

 

[nick123]

I haven't handled the BK Liberty, but it seems it's a quick to show wear leather.

 

[marker2037]

That's definitely the case, as evidenced by many pics I've seen. Sometimes the russet and seal can look a bit flat to me though (I like leathers that vary in depth and tones), which is why I'm hesitant to try those leathers, but I do want to give some form of russet a try and I do like the dark seal a lot and would love to see what black looks like.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Bill Kelso (Exclamation Mark)

The Liberty horsehide. I am 99% sure it is the veg tan horsehide from Victoria SRL. It would be same/similar to Vicenza or Italian horse hides that the US makers uses. Very quality stuff. Mostly pigment/semi aniline. I've got the russet one, it has a coating on top, veg tan base, veg tan smell, on the lighter side of 3oz thickness.

Some straight out of the box jacket pics:

Some fit pics: This is a stock size 44, no custom measurements. I went off the size chart on his web store. It has high armholes and not a lot of taper, but the design has corset side laces. Will post the measure pics in the next post because limits on pics per post.

My personal findings and opinions about BK and his jacket:
1) The jacket shipped from Piraeus, Greece. There is no country of origin label. Given the choices of quality materials, my best guess is EU made.
2) The value of the Archive line is very good.
3) My order took almost 7 months. Ordered end of January, finalized in Feb, received today, August 16th.
4) I suspect the Archive line is produced at a different shop than the regular line items. Because the archive line was only available in Liberty horsehide and not Badalassi.
5) BK uses NOS zips throughout. Except the main zip which he uses the repro Talon. Probably no NOS with long enough zip tape. Lots of nice small repro details.
6) I understand personal relationship is a big part of the leather jacket business. I get why people don't want to give him business when they've been threatened with law suits or been called names. But putting all the personal issues aside, BK does make a very good jacket.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Measurements
BK quoted 20” shoulder 23.5” P2P 25.75”sleeve 24.5” back
I measured smaller. I find this is same across brands. I believe the maker measure their paper pattern dimensions and add them up. And I measure the actual assembled jacket minus all the seam allowances. So something to keep in mind.

Watch the hem dims. This one was ok only because of the corset sides. If it was a half belt it would bag out.

 

[Blackadder]

Bill Kelso (Exclamation Mark)

The Liberty horsehide. I am 99% sure it is the veg tan horsehide from Victoria SRL. It would be same/similar to Vicenza or Italian horse hides that the US makers uses. Very quality stuff. Mostly pigment/semi aniline. I've got the russet one, it has a coating on top, veg tan base, veg tan smell, on the lighter side of 3oz thickness.

Some straight out of the box jacket pics:
View attachment 445218
View attachment 445219
View attachment 445220
Some fit pics: This is a stock size 44, no custom measurements. I went off the size chart on his web store. It has high armholes and not a lot of taper, but the design has corset side laces. Will post the measure pics in the next post because limits on pics per post.
View attachment 445221
View attachment 445222
View attachment 445223
View attachment 445224
My personal findings and opinions about BK and his jacket:
1) The jacket shipped from Piraeus, Greece. There is no country of origin label. Given the choices of quality materials, my best guess is EU made.
2) The value of the Archive line is very good.
3) My order took almost 7 months. Ordered end of January, finalized in Feb, received today, August 16th.
4) I suspect the Archive line is produced at a different shop than the regular line items. Because the archive line was only available in Liberty horsehide and not Badalassi.
5) BK uses NOS zips throughout. Except the main zip which he uses the repro Talon. Probably no NOS with long enough zip tape. Lots of nice small repro details.
6) I understand personal relationship is a big part of the leather jacket business. I get why people don't want to give him business when they've been threatened with law suits or been called names. But putting all the personal issues aside, BK does make a very good jacket.

Yes, the Archive line is reasonably priced because they are sample jackets that have never been made by BK and once they make it a regular, they increase the price. Look at the price of the Leathertogs now.

 

[handymike]

So they are the opposite of 5 Star who charges less for subsequent builds of custom orders?

 

[Blackadder]

So they are the opposite of 5 Star who charges less for subsequent builds of custom orders?

All jackets in the Archive line are at the same price GBP850 regardless of complexity. They cost less than an A-2 made with the same Liberty HH. BK has never made any of the Archive line unless and until a first customer order one. A test sample jacket hence the low cost in case it goes wrong and I think if enough people show interest, that particular model would be put in the regular line up. I think the Leathertogs was in the Archive line at GBP850 and now it costs GBP1300 as regular item.

 

[Will Zach]

Bill Kelso (Exclamation Mark)

The Liberty horsehide. I am 99% sure it is the veg tan horsehide from Victoria SRL. It would be same/similar to Vicenza or Italian horse hides that the US makers uses. Very quality stuff. Mostly pigment/semi aniline. I've got the russet one, it has a coating on top, veg tan base, veg tan smell, on the lighter side of 3oz thickness.

Some straight out of the box jacket pics:
View attachment 445218
View attachment 445219
View attachment 445220
Some fit pics: This is a stock size 44, no custom measurements. I went off the size chart on his web store. It has high armholes and not a lot of taper, but the design has corset side laces. Will post the measure pics in the next post because limits on pics per post.
View attachment 445221
View attachment 445222
View attachment 445223
View attachment 445224
My personal findings and opinions about BK and his jacket:
1) The jacket shipped from Piraeus, Greece. There is no country of origin label. Given the choices of quality materials, my best guess is EU made.
2) The value of the Archive line is very good.
3) My order took almost 7 months. Ordered end of January, finalized in Feb, received today, August 16th.
4) I suspect the Archive line is produced at a different shop than the regular line items. Because the archive line was only available in Liberty horsehide and not Badalassi.
5) BK uses NOS zips throughout. Except the main zip which he uses the repro Talon. Probably no NOS with long enough zip tape. Lots of nice small repro details.
6) I understand personal relationship is a big part of the leather jacket business. I get why people don't want to give him business when they've been threatened with law suits or been called names. But putting all the personal issues aside, BK does make a very good jacket.

One of your best fitting jackets. Put on some pants and you're good to go...

 

[Blackadder]

The Peter's look very nice. Congrats.

I bought an A-2 from BK a long time ago. Back then there were mostly praise on FL. Very competitive price, good workmanship. Then they raised the price literally overnight by switching currency from Euros to GBP. I paid Euros 350 for my A-2 and overnight it became GBP350 or 400. Reason given was they found a UK company to finance them therefore switched the currency. I think that kind of put people off. Then one or two fellow loungers posted about not happy with the cut and/or leather. Then came the whole "I know leather better than anyone else" fiasco when fellow loungers started a thread to discuss whether the Victory hide is worth the price. Yes, price was raised again because BK now have access to the best hide in the world. It is more because he berated his competitors by suggesting that hide e.g. Shiniki used by his competitors are low quality in that thread. He just snapped. Not only here but on the VLJ forum as well I think. That got him banned from FL.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Yes, the Archive line is reasonably priced because they are sample jackets that have never been made by BK and once they make it a regular, they increase the price. Look at the price of the Leathertogs now.

I am seriously considering the leathertog in Badalassi but the pricing is not cool.

So they are the opposite of 5 Star who charges less for subsequent builds of custom orders?

Very different cuts. 5Star cuts are mostly Aero copies but Aero still do better job, also more expensive but way better leather.
BK cut is the opposite of Aero, it is slim straight. I don't want to use the Thedi comparison because I am quite certain they are not made in the same shop (different stitch machine setup). But their pattern cut is very similar/same. There isn't a lot of taper in the torso but these cuts do make every body type look slimmer. One can get away with a smaller P2P on these type of cuts and still be comfortable. I remember one of the Thedi thread mentioned this too.

One of your best fitting jackets. Put on some pants and you're good to go...

Definitely will take some better photos when this heat is over! I get home the first thing the pants goes... haha...

The Peter's look very nice. Congrats.

I bought an A-2 from BK a long time ago. Back then there were mostly praise on FL. Very competitive price, good workmanship. Then they raised the price literally overnight by switching currency from Euros to GBP. I paid Euros 350 for my A-2 and overnight it became GBP350 or 400. Reason given was they found a UK company to finance them therefore switched the currency. I think that kind of put people off. Then one or two fellow loungers posted about not happy with the cut and/or leather. Then came the whole "I know leather better than anyone else" fiasco when fellow loungers started a thread to discuss whether the Victory hide is worth the price. Yes, price was raised again because BK now have access to the best hide in the world. It is more because he berated his competitors by suggesting that hide e.g. Shiniki used by his competitors are low quality in that thread. He just snapped. Not only here but on the VLJ forum as well I think. That got him banned from FL.

Thanks man!

About the pricing. I remember reading older threads that the Aero jackets were half of what they are now too. Good times.
For the most part, this is just my personal opinion, that regardless of branding and marketing, all of these new premium heritage jackets are really only worth about $1,000 dollars in today's dollars. Some brands hype things up and sell for twice and more while other brands stay around the $1k mark.
Shinki, Victoria SRL, Badalassi, Horween, CF Stead...etc. all have very similar per square foot price, between $10 to $12. While they have overlapping leather offerings, they each offer something that the others don't. IMHO, There is no better or worse or best leather. But I don't mind the marketing hype. It's like watching WWE.
Berating customers stories didn't sit well with me though. That's why for the longest time I didn't try BK. Customer is always right. Even when they are wrong, the best thing is to just give them back their money and walk away without any harsh words. If there were incident where people who'd lost money with BK, then I wouldn't have tried his jackets. But reading through the past threads, it seemed that no money was actually lost, so I pulled the trigger.
BK Archive line is priced very close to what a custom Aero jacket cost (before VAT deduction), but he does actual repro designs without steering away from the original too much. It really fills the gap where no quality vintage is available. The Peter's is a good example.

 

[Blackadder]

I am seriously considering the leathertog in Badalassi but the pricing is not cool.


Very different cuts. 5Star cuts are mostly Aero copies but Aero still do better job, also more expensive but way better leather.
BK cut is the opposite of Aero, it is slim straight. I don't want to use the Thedi comparison because I am quite certain they are not made in the same shop (different stitch machine setup). But their pattern cut is very similar/same. There isn't a lot of taper in the torso but these cuts do make every body type look slimmer. One can get away with a smaller P2P on these type of cuts and still be comfortable. I remember one of the Thedi thread mentioned this too.



Definitely will take some better photos when this heat is over! I get home the first thing the pants goes... haha...


Thanks man!

About the pricing. I remember reading older threads that the Aero jackets were half of what they are now too. Good times.
For the most part, this is just my personal opinion, that regardless of branding and marketing, all of these new premium heritage jackets are really only worth about $1,000 dollars in today's dollars. Some brands hype things up and sell for twice and more while other brands stay around the $1k mark.
Shinki, Victoria SRL, Badalassi, Horween, CF Stead...etc. all have very similar per square foot price, between $10 to $12. While they have overlapping leather offerings, they each offer something that the others don't. IMHO, There is no better or worse or best leather. But I don't mind the marketing hype. It's like watching WWE.
Berating customers stories didn't sit well with me though. That's why for the longest time I didn't try BK. Customer is always right. Even when they are wrong, the best thing is to just give them back their money and walk away without any harsh words. If there were incident where people who'd lost money with BK, then I wouldn't have tried his jackets. But reading through the past threads, it seemed that no money was actually lost, so I pulled the trigger.
BK Archive line is priced very close to what a custom Aero jacket cost (before VAT deduction), but he does actual repro designs without steering away from the original too much. It really fills the gap where no quality vintage is available. The Peter's is a good example.

I put on some weight a couple years ago and cannot no longer fit into my FW San Mateo, so I thought about getting the BK to make one for me. But then I put the project aside because like most ppl I would rather lose the weight.
I think at the start he was making sales pitch to FL members about his new Victory HH, suggesting that other leather like Shiniki cannot possibly compete with Victory and in doing so he berated his competitor. Some FLoungers defended the competitors while questioning his claim about the Victory hide. Then he went into lecturing mode and ended up suggesting that we know nothing about leather and should shut up. That is why I said he snapped.
As for the price, he uped his price literally overnight. One day it was a bargain costing less than an Aero, the next it is the same if not more than an Eastman. FYI GBP400 was for the House A-2 made with unknown HH, their entry level bargain to lure business and after the price increase, it was about the same price as a named contract Aero. They no longer make them House A-2. Price of their named contract A-2 was raised to GBP600 from 600 euros. Then they had to raise the price again almost immediately to something like 700 for the "new" Victory hide.
Aero and/or Eastman on the other hand raised prices over many years which is different when we take into account inflation etc.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I put on some weight a couple years ago and cannot no longer fit into my FW San Mateo, so I thought about getting the BK to make one for me. But then I put the project aside because like most ppl I would rather lose the weight.
I think at the start he was making sales pitch to FL members about his new Victory HH, suggesting that other leather like Shiniki cannot possibly compete with Victory and in doing so he berated his competitor. Some FLoungers defended the competitors while questioning his claim about the Victory hide. Then he went into lecturing mode and ended up suggesting that we know nothing about leather and should shut up. That is why I said he snapped.
As for the price, he uped his price literally overnight. One day it was a bargain costing less than an Aero, the next it is the same if not more than an Eastman. FYI GBP400 was for the House A-2 made with unknown HH, their entry level bargain to lure business and after the price increase, it was about the same price as a named contract Aero. They no longer make them House A-2. Price of their named contract A-2 was raised to GBP600 from 600 euros. Then they had to raise the price again almost immediately to something like 700 for the "new" Victory hide.
Aero and/or Eastman on the other hand raised prices over many years which is different when we take into account inflation etc.

It's hard to maintain the same size throughout the years. I just found out that I shrank a cm in height and gained a few pounds at the doctors. Indulging in small daily joys can be worth the cost of a new jacket, given the main goal is to stay healthy too.
My BK Peter's jacket didn't come with the Peter's label. Which was a let down. If BK "introduce" the Peter's jacket in his regular line as an expensive option like the leathertog and then use the label. It would be mix feelings for me. FWIW, there are now four Peter's jacket available, from FL, LW, FW, and BK.
And about the Victory horsehide. I've read up on all the past threads. The photos of Victory leather look like it's full transparent aniline finish. This is quite difficult for horsehide by nature and would incur high wastage in jacket making. My best guess is that BK Andy is not a hands on boss, so the shock of high wastage of using full aniline horsehide came only after he has already sold it as his unicorn golden ticket. And instead of owning up the mistake, I'd assume he did what every boss would do, tell the supplier to figure it out. And of course high wastage doesn't just get figured out, and hence the back log and even more pissed off customers and the negative loop just kept repeating itself. I've never had a boss who would own up their mistakes in my entire career. The nature of being a boss. Not losing face were always most important.
I am ok with small price increases on a regular basis with lots of warnings ahead, but not one time sudden price increase. The sudden price increase would put a bad taste in any customer's mouth. FWIW, I looked at BK too when I bought my first Aero. SB too. It was because Aero was the most expensive out of the three but also was most talked about online that made me went with Aero. Today Aero with all its price increases is the now the least expensive of the three without the VAT. Very strange journey.
The search for unicorn leather continues... But at the same time I don't want to feel like I got ripped off either. Very strange roads...

 

[Blackadder]

It's hard to maintain the same size throughout the years. I just found out that I shrank a cm in height and gained a few pounds at the doctors. Indulging in small daily joys can be worth the cost of a new jacket, given the main goal is to stay healthy too.
My BK Peter's jacket didn't come with the Peter's label. Which was a let down. If BK "introduce" the Peter's jacket in his regular line as an expensive option like the leathertog and then use the label. It would be mix feelings for me. FWIW, there are now four Peter's jacket available, from FL, LW, FW, and BK.
And about the Victory horsehide. I've read up on all the past threads. The photos of Victory leather look like it's full transparent aniline finish. This is quite difficult for horsehide by nature and would incur high wastage in jacket making. My best guess is that BK Andy is not a hands on boss, so the shock of high wastage of using full aniline horsehide came only after he has already sold it as his unicorn golden ticket. And instead of owning up the mistake, I'd assume he did what every boss would do, tell the supplier to figure it out. And of course high wastage doesn't just get figured out, and hence the back log and even more pissed off customers and the negative loop just kept repeating itself. I've never had a boss who would own up their mistakes in my entire career. The nature of being a boss. Not losing face were always most important.
I am ok with small price increases on a regular basis with lots of warnings ahead, but not one time sudden price increase. The sudden price increase would put a bad taste in any customer's mouth. FWIW, I looked at BK too when I bought my first Aero. SB too. It was because Aero was the most expensive out of the three but also was most talked about online that made me went with Aero. Today Aero with all its price increases is the now the least expensive of the three without the VAT. Very strange journey.
The search for unicorn leather continues... But at the same time I don't want to feel like I got ripped off either. Very strange roads...

There is another company making only the Peter's repro jacket. A fellow member posted its website a while ago. It actually been around for a few years and some of us posted photos back then. I saw a couple of their jackets on Yahoo Auction a few years back. I think those are their test samples.
https://peterstailormade.com/en/products
https://www.facebook.com/nalu.tani/
There are also the copies of the FW San Mateo from China.

 

[handymike]

There is another company making only the Peter's repro jacket. A fellow member posted its website a while ago. It actually been around for a few years and some of us posted photos back then. I saw a couple of their jackets on Yahoo Auction a few years back. I think those are their test samples.
https://peterstailormade.com/en/products
https://www.facebook.com/nalu.tani/
There are also the copies of the FW San Mateo from China.

There is a Peter’s Tailormade dealer in NYC ?!?!!!!!

 

[Edward]

All jackets in the Archive line are at the same price GBP850 regardless of complexity. They cost less than an A-2 made with the same Liberty HH. BK has never made any of the Archive line unless and until a first customer order one. A test sample jacket hence the low cost in case it goes wrong and I think if enough people show interest, that particular model would be put in the regular line up. I think the Leathertogs was in the Archive line at GBP850 and now it costs GBP1300 as regular item.

Yes, it seems to me what they're doing is using that approach to, in effect, have a customer pay for the sampling process. The trade-off of course is that the buyer gets it as a reduced price against their RRP. It's an interesting idea, as long as everyone knows the deal and there's a clear understanding as to what happens if anything turns out not as expected.

A lot of the budget-end makers operate on a very similar basis (you'll see them all over eBay - usually with copyright infringing pictures from motives and/or other brands' websites. I've even appeared on one such site myself, after then ripped off photos I posted to TFL of me in a Lost Worlds B3...). The difference being that those lower-end brands don't tend to be upfront that they're showing you someone else-s work and saying "oh yeah, we can make that", without having done it before. The business case of course is that it avoids the expense of making stock without a guaranteed sale - though I would expect it only to be fair that the customer be aware of this.

The Peter's look very nice. Congrats.

I bought an A-2 from BK a long time ago. Back then there were mostly praise on FL. Very competitive price, good workmanship. Then they raised the price literally overnight by switching currency from Euros to GBP. I paid Euros 350 for my A-2 and overnight it became GBP350 or 400. Reason given was they found a UK company to finance them therefore switched the currency. I think that kind of put people off. Then one or two fellow loungers posted about not happy with the cut and/or leather. Then came the whole "I know leather better than anyone else" fiasco when fellow loungers started a thread to discuss whether the Victory hide is worth the price. Yes, price was raised again because BK now have access to the best hide in the world. It is more because he berated his competitors by suggesting that hide e.g. Shiniki used by his competitors are low quality in that thread. He just snapped. Not only here but on the VLJ forum as well I think. That got him banned from FL.

When they first came out, they were selling a period correct, but not contract specific, A2 jacket. This was aimed at a mid-price level in the market; around £300 when an Aero was £500, Eastman around the same, and a Schott Perfecto could be had, new, for £400. Prices have gone up across the board since then, some brands with rising cost / inflation, others as part of a deliberate strategy to reposition themselves in the market. BK decided pretty quickly there wasn't the mid-price market they had aimed for, so they upped themselves into the contract repro game and built the current line. Their product has always seemed very good, but yes, the marketing.... Aside from the abrasive stance towards customers and competitors alike, which, well, maybe that works for them with their target market, if not for all of us, I was rather taken aback at one point when their then new hide was broadly sold in a tone of "our old stuff was rubbish compared to this" - while they were still selling stock of the older hide. But hey ho, they seem to be doing well and they have some nice designs, so good luck to them. They charge more than I'm really willing to spend these days, but that's all part of market positioning. Eastman's prices similarly shot up a few years ago; I suspect it's a case of wanting to compete with a lot of the Japanese brands in those price brackets - what the business guys refer to as "perceived value".

 

[Canuck Panda]

There is another company making only the Peter's repro jacket. A fellow member posted its website a while ago. It actually been around for a few years and some of us posted photos back then. I saw a couple of their jackets on Yahoo Auction a few years back. I think those are their test samples.
https://peterstailormade.com/en/products
https://www.facebook.com/nalu.tani/
There are also the copies of the FW San Mateo from China.

I've been following that store for long time now. I'd really like to find out the story behind this photo.