Bill Kelso dark seal Liberty horse

[Superfluous]

Mark, respectfully, many of us who get a bit bent out of shape over Andy's antics also post glowing comments when one of the members here posts a new BK jacket. You can find many threads where it's nothing but positive comments about a nice BK jacket. They DO make some great leathers... and, when an Aero jacket is posted and we think there is a problem with the fit, we are all pretty vocal about that also. It's actually been pretty quiet lately about BK, mainly because he let his jackets do his talking. What was an honest debate about leather turned into this because of his statements. Let's face it, especially in a community like this, we are not buying lifeless pieces of leather. We are buying the experience, we are buying the company, we live and breathe this stuff. If Andy wants to make it his marketing plan to put down other companies, and state "absolutes" that are demonstrably false, then he should expect a pretty strong response.

Well said PWG. Moreover, at the same time that many here have taken exception with BK's conduct, we also have posted positive comments about BK/Andy as warranted. For example, notwithstanding my rapidly declining opinion of BK, I posted an acknowledgment of the company's good service.

 

[pawineguy]

I agree .. but simply because a disgruntles ex TFL'er desides to post on their facebook page doesn't make them a bad company ... or call into question their ethics. As a consumer I have NEVER had an issue dealing with BK they have always treated me fairly and delivered my product on time and to the required spec. (if not better). As far as I am aware they do not operate a sweat shop or manufacture using child labour. I have no knowledge of them contravening the SEC or any other business ethics laws and while I have no idea where they source their raw materials I have not heard that it's from insustainable sources. Equally Andy's insight re. top grain and full grain leather was factual and accurate !

They make really nice jackets ( at least those I have owned and seen have been really nice) ... and if you buy direct or on ebay they go for really good prices. Andy has posted here and (if I was him) I'm sure BK has struck TFL off his target list long ago ( as has Stu at LW and probably HPA ) ..... never get involved in the politics of jacket makers ....... they are ALL as bad as one another.

P.S. I have no bias towards BK, have never workled for them, had any sort of business deal with them .... I did like their facebook page and had a pm from Andy Fazlon once thanking me for sticking up for them when he was getting lambasted on here unfairly IMHO ( perhaps that makes me a shill )

I think what you are missing or forgetting about the "good" information that Andy provided in that thread was that his very first post had incorrect information about Horween, and then he proceeded to attribute motives to other companies when he had no way of knowing what their real motives were... that's what he does. If you're happy to ignore all that, and look for the crumbs of good information, then that's your right. On the other hand, in that instance in particular, he had a chance to just try to educate, but he couldn't help himself and went right after his competitors.

 

[Superfluous]

^ This

 

[Plumbline]

Cutting one paragraph from your VERY long post doesn't mean that's what you did ... you did much more than simply ask a poster to define their bias ....

Re. the FB post .. that's your view and you're entitled to it .... not sure who it offended ( you clearly ) .... TFL ???? I'm sure we've been called worse from disgruntled banned members. Besides, if I was BK, I'd be positively applauding Roscoe after some of the treatment they have recieved on here ( just MHO) and if I was Roscoe / Schitzo I'd have a similar view I'm afraid ( again JMHO ) !!!!

I guess you won't be buying the Heracles at £1250 from AC then .... me neither ( for entirely different reasons perhaps)

 

[Superfluous]

you did much more than simply ask a poster to define their bias ....

After conveying my intended message, I admittedly did say a tad more.

if I was BK, I'd be positively applauding Roscoe . . . and if I was Roscoe / Schitzo I'd have a similar view I'm afraid ( again JMHO ) !!!!

Empathy for Roscoe's/Schitzo's dissatisfaction with TFL is one thing -- condoning the offensive language that Roscoe / Schitzo posted on BK's FB page, and BK allowed to remain, is entirely different. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Ps: Take a look at Roscoe's FB page. It speaks volumes!

 

[Plumbline]

On the other hand, in that instance in particular, he had a chance to just try to educate, but he couldn't help himself and went right after his competitors.

He's a jacket manufacturer .... Aero do it, Alexanders do it, Eastman do it, BK do it ...... I've yet to come across a jacket manufacturer who doesn't believe their product is better than their competition and comment accordingly ( either in forum or FTF).

There are very few exceptions IMHO and my experience ... they are in the business of making jackets and seeling them for a profit. To imagine something different is folly IMHO ( I may be a cynical old jacket collector) ..... to each his own, and we each buy for our own reasons ( I have never hidden mine ... I buy cheap, indiscriminately and often .. I won't wait a year or even a few months and I seldom buy new unless I cannot get a jacket 2nd hand ... I have no brand loyalty ... the jacket is king and I try and buy for the lowest price possible, I'm not in the business of sustaining the manufacturer beyond what I consider reasonable.) The manufacturer wants my money and I want their jacket .. it's a simple transactional thing.

We probably won't agree here ( no change there perhaps) but that's perhaps because I don't have the customer loyalty or company filters ( I don't have to like or admire or even have an affinity with a company to buy their stuff) that some of you guys have .. sorry, that's just me i'm afraid.

 

[Plumbline]

Empathy for Roscoe's/Schitzo's dissatisfaction with TFL is one thing -- condoning the offensive language that Roscoe / Schitzo posted on BK's FB page, and BK allowed to remain, is entirely different. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Ps: Take a look at Roscoe's FB page. It speaks volumes!

I forgot we were children .. I've been called a cock on here ... I've even had physical threats on here .... but then I've had many more supportive PM's than the negative posts. You are right we will not agree .... perhaps I just don't place as much relevance/ importance on either internet forums ( VLJ / SF / SJC / TFL ETC. or FB for that matter).

.... and for the record I have Roscoe as a "Friend" .... TFL needs a Schitzo or two IMHO if only for a bit of balance and diversity !!!!!!!!!!

 

[zhz]

BK's response to Schitzo's post is not professional, they should delete it, or not response to it. Actually, Schitzo told me privately (yes, we are friend) that he also think BK should delete his post.

 

[handymike]

I agree that while certain ex-members might be a Pain-in-the-a** sometimes, they add to the community as a whole. I miss some of those guys.

 

[ProteinNerd]

I think the thing that BK is forgetting is that virtually every person here is a potential future customer. Sure I might think that the cuffs are too wide on this jacket but that doesn't mean I'd never order from them and specify narrower cuffs in another style....

Allowing an ex forum member to post such negative and homophobic comments on FB and not take them down is...well lets just say its not exactly endearing to what is a very concentrated, passionate group of potential customers.

 

[Superfluous]

I've yet to come across a jacket manufacturer who doesn't believe their product is better than their competition and comment accordingly ( either in forum or FTF).

Its one thing to believe that your product is the best, and to share your belief. It is something entirely different to falsely ascribe bad motives to your competition, and to aggressively disparage your competition. Go into a Ferrari dealership and ask the salesman what he thinks of Mclaren. He might state that Ferrari is better, and explain the factual basis for his opinion, but I doubt he will state that Mclarens are crap, or use crap components. By proceeding in a respectful and professional manner, the Ferrari salesperson is more likely to win over the potential customer. Conversely, if the Ferrari salesman were to aggressively criticize Mclaren, he would risk alienating and losing the potential customer, precisely as BK has alienated and lost many potential customers.

Moreover, my experiences with jacket manufacturers and salespeople are VERY different than yours. Jacket manufacturers/sales people OFTEN compliment the competition. David Himel is John Chapman's biggest fan. Carrie has openly complimented the quality of Real McCoy jackets. Ironically, it is this type of honesty and professionalism that engenders sustained patronage. I just purchased another jacket from Carrie because, among other things, I trust her. She doesn't oversell her products, and she does not unnecessarily disparage products that she does not sell; to the contrary, she compliments products that she does not sell. She is real and genuine. Others could learn from this type of professionalism.

 

[Superfluous]

I agree that while certain ex-members might be a Pain-in-the-a** sometimes, they add to the community as a whole. I miss some of those guys.

I agree. A homogeneous community is undesirable. I enjoy the interesting and sometimes divergent contributions from certain members, both present and exiled. That said, respectful discourse is of paramount importance.

I wish Andy did not voluntarily exile himself. He is an incredibly knowledgeable guy and I wish he was still here sharing his immense knowledge with us (in a respectful manner), as opposed to speaking to TFL through his FB page.

 

[Sloan1874]

.... and for the record I have Roscoe as a "Friend" .... TFL needs a Schitzo or two IMHO if only for a bit of balance and diversity !!!!!!!!!!

Aye, right.

 

[Sloan1874]

Allowing an ex forum member to post such negative and homophobic comments on FB and not take them down is...well lets just say its not exactly endearing to what is a very concentrated, passionate group of potential customers.

This is exactly the point: why alienate a whole potential customer base to prove what? Nothing. It's just loony.

 

[pawineguy]

I think the thing that BK is forgetting is that virtually every person here is a potential future customer. Sure I might think that the cuffs are too wide on this jacket but that doesn't mean I'd never order from them and specify narrower cuffs in another style....

Allowing an ex forum member to post such negative and homophobic comments on FB and not take them down is...well lets just say its not exactly endearing to what is a very concentrated, passionate group of potential customers.

This is what's so ironic. Superfluous bought TWO jackets from BK, even after all of the things that Andy had posted, so people jumping down his throat about bias are just misguided. By now, if not for Andy's commentaries, I would 100% own a BK jacket. I've been on his webpage a hundred times, looked at all his Facebook pics, commented and admired jackets posted here, and read some reviews by people who I know are knowledgable and whose opinions I respect. All he had to do was NOT say anything.

 

[handymike]

Chamboid, if you are still reading this, could you please describe the Badalassi? We don't see it much around here.
I think your jackets look great.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Hey Super..you know the plumber's way by now...the 'oh well' attitude that then includes..'I ain't never bias like others here'...plus 'I do buying the smarter way than most of you bums here'..and 'if I can't sell you all of my story'..'I deflect about something else completely followed by more repetitious 'oh wells' and 'so whats' after I've critically dissected your posts to my satisfaction'. 'You're a fanboy and I just ain't'..blah blah blah. Same ole same ole.

 

[chamboid]

Chamboid, if you are still reading this, could you please describe the Badalassi? We don't see it much around here.
I think your jackets look great.

Thanks, they are decent. I'll send you a PM if you like, include some more photographs. It's a lovely leather.

 

[Plumbline]

Hey Super..you know the plumber's way by now...the 'oh well' attitude that then includes..'I ain't never bias like others here'...plus 'I do buying the smarter way than most of you bums here'..and 'if I can't sell you all of my story'..'I deflect about something else completely followed by more repetitious 'oh wells' and 'so whats' after I've critically dissected your posts to my satisfaction'. 'You're a fanboy and I just ain't'..blah blah blah. Same ole same ole.

More mis truths and assumptions ...

1. I have never said I buy smarter ... Cheaper maybe, more often maybe and more often than not ... Not directly. Not sure if that's "smarter" or not HD

2. There are some very partisan posters on here ... IMHO sometimes it isn't helpful ... I don't donate works of art to jacket manufacturers, write press articles about them or display items on their showroom walls .... I buy ( and sell) and collect jackets ... simple! I just don't share some if the brand loyalty ( or hatred) I see here ( but hey at least I'm honest about it)

3. I've never called anyone a bum .. Regardless of what I have thought .... And have tried always to behave within the rules ... I GET that you don't like my posts ( or perhaps me HD ) that's fine.

What's your view on the BK hides ?

 

[chamboid]

So here is a barely worn Hercules jacket dating back to the late 40's

The leather is light and supple, with not much noticeable grain



It shows edge wear, and has an even colour all over apart from where worn. Very close to the Liberty samples.