Bill Kelso dark seal Liberty horse

[Otter]

Superfluous, you do realise who Roscoe the Human is? Think back to a recently banned member of this esteemed establishment.

 

[Superfluous]

Superfluous, you do realise who Roscoe the Human is? Think back to a recently banned member of this esteemed establishment.

I honestly have no idea.

 

[nick123]

I posted a pic of my Windward's sleeve width on the BK page, because it too is wide. I think that may have been common on those jackets.

PS, I'm friends with Roscoe on facebook. But that's because I enthusiastically add anyone affiliated with the leather scene...

 

[dan_t]

opcorn:
We haven't had a good one like this for ages.......

 

[Otter]

RTH is none other than our good unbiased friend Schitzo.

 

[zhz]

I posted a pic of my Windward's sleeve width on the BK page, because it too is wide. I think that may have been common on those jackets.

PS, I'm friends with Roscoe on facebook. But that's because I enthusiastically add anyone affiliated with the leather scene...

I saw ur post on FB. And some one's guess about the wide sleeves is this, and I think it make sense: the sleeve length favoured by most of us who buy these jackets is over the hand verging on the base of the thumb. But back in 30-50's, maybe these jackets used to be worn with sleeves that sat further up, and shorter sleeves could be less tight to the arm and still look good.

 

[nick123]

I saw ur post on FB. And some one's guess about the wide sleeves is this, and I think it make sense: the sleeve length favoured by most of us who buy these jackets is over the hand verging on the base of the thumb. But back in 30-50's, maybe these jackets used to be worn with sleeves that sat further up, and shorter sleeves could be less tight to the arm and still look good.

Alright I'm adding you.

 

[zhz]

Alright I'm adding you.

I believe I am very easy to identified.

 

[Superfluous]

RTH is none other than our good unbiased friend Schitzo.

Lol! Well, his true colors have been aptly illustrated on BK's FB page, thus validating the appropriateness of his banning from TFL.

 

[Otter]

Lol! Well, his true colors have been aptly illustrated on BK's FB page, thus validating the appropriateness of his banning from TFL.

I can take no credit for that piece of detective work; I was standing on the shoulders of giants. I forgot to asked them about their sleeve sizes though!

 

[Superfluous]

I can take no credit for that piece of detective work; I was standing on the shoulders of giants. I forgot to asked them about their sleeve sizes though!

Perhaps BK designed its ample sleeve width with these giants in mind?

 

[Mark]

It does get a little tire-some this BKK bashing not to mention unfair. Andy/BKK are what they are. You don't have to follow them or buy their jackets but this constant running them down feels wrong and does not in my opinion do FL credibility much good. I kinda feel the moderators should be stepping in and saying enough is enough. They were quite quick to wag the finger at Andy when he stepped out of line here, where are they now?
Of course I could equally not read the thread but I dislike to see some one getting such a hard time and not be able to defend their corner. Is it not possible to live and let live and try and be a little more forgiving of others perceived short falls?
At the end of the day BKK make great jackets and that surly is what matters.

 

[Otter]

Iirc BK were not banned here, unlike on another forum. I tried to get them reinstated on there but could not gather any support.

They chose to take their discussions to an arena where they had total control over the comment, Facebook.

However, I take your point and will get back in my cage now.

 

[bretron]

Now I see they've responded to the cuff width discussion...

Shouldnt sleeve cuffs with a button closure be more narrow than sleeve cuffs without?? Am I alone in this??

 

[Superfluous]

At the end of the day BKK make great jackets and that surly is what matters.

I respectfully disagree. A company's business ethics also matter. The manner with which a company conducts itself matters. A company's endorsement and/or condoning of patently offensive statements matters. Regardless of the quality of its products, we are entitled to hold BK accountable for its conduct, statements and actions. I know more than one member of this forum who long ago wrote-off BK because of its outrageous conduct. In fact, I was privately ridiculed when I purchased two jackets from BK notwithstanding its conduct. Unfortunately, BK continues to dig a deeper hole for itself. BK's conduct becomes more and more outrageous and unacceptable. As consumers, we have a right to express our thoughts regarding BK's conduct, and the quality of BK's jackets does not insulate BK from such scrutiny.

These issues matter. BK's business ethics and conduct are important considerations, worthy of discussion.

 

[Plumbline]

^ You cannot be serious Plumbline! You started a thread for the sole purpose of demanding that anyone biased in favor of Aero publicly admit their bias (the thread where you coined the term "Aero Fanboy"): http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?80202-So-who-are-the-Aero-Fanboys-(-and-girls) . You demanded complete candor and disclosure as to such biases (even though you were concealing your own failed business dealings with Aero). Now, you have the audacity to criticize me for doing nothing more than stating that retailers -- owners and employees -- should disclose their affiliations when endorsing the products that they sell. To say that your posts are wildly inconsistent and irreconcilable is an understatement.

But Superfluous .. that's not what you did ..... and it's not what you said. Chambois has posted their position though and that's good.

for the record ( to correct the mistruths and assumptions):

1. I did not invent the term "Aero Fanboy" it predates my post by several years.

2. I have had no "failed business dealings" with Aero .. I arranged a deal with a 3rd party which ended acrimoniously between Aero and the 3rd party ! I lost no money, I made no money ... in fact it was a bit of a non entity and something I was involved with in 2007. It doesn't prevent me from buying product from Aero or Alexanders which I do with great Gusto ( 3 Aero's in this quarter - B3, A2 and 1950's Halfbelt, 2 Alexanders - Dakota and Grizzly and 1 Eastman -ANJ-4) Surely not the behaviour of a consumer who hates the manufacturers

Unknown bias is something I detest ( as you know) ... it makes it very difficult for the reader here to come to a balanced opinion and it makes retailers and manufacturers reluctant to post here ( to the detriment of TFL IMHO). I am a shameless jacket whore .. I buy cheap and I buy often from all ... I like it, I buy it, I get bored with it, I sell it. If I hated Ken or Aero ( although surely my ire would be reserved for the previous management as Ken wasn't involved) I simply wouldn't buy there stuff .... equally if I hated Will and the previous management ( who were around in 2007) I simply wouldn't buy their stuff .... since I do neither it sort of negates the issue !!!

Apologies to the OP for the distraction on the post, I just thought I should clarify some incorrect facts. If you wish to know more of the detail of the deal in 2007 Superfluous pm me ... I am happy to be as transparent as I can be but it wouldn't be fair to the 3rd party or Aero to post any detail on a public forum.

Anyway .. I like the liberty and the Victory and certainly don't think the samples I have seen are lifeless and like vinyl and my BK M422a has possibly the nicest seal goatskin I have seen. Then again I don't have the inclination to spend £1250 on a jacket no matter how nice it is

 

[Plumbline]

I respectfully disagree. A company's business ethics also matter. The manner with which a company conducts itself matters. A company's endorsement and/or condoning of patently offensive statements matters. Regardless of the quality of its products, we are entitled to hold BK accountable for its conduct, statements and actions. I know more than one member of this forum who long ago wrote-off BK because of its outrageous conduct. In fact, I was privately ridiculed when I purchased two jackets from BK notwithstanding its conduct. Unfortunately, BK continues to dig a deeper hole for itself. BK's conduct becomes more and more outrageous and unacceptable. As consumers, we have a right to express our thoughts regarding BK's conduct, and the quality of BK's jackets does not insulate BK from such scrutiny.

These issues matter. BK's business ethics and conduct are important considerations, worthy of discussion.

I agree .. but simply because a disgruntles ex TFL'er desides to post on their facebook page doesn't make them a bad company ... or call into question their ethics. As a consumer I have NEVER had an issue dealing with BK they have always treated me fairly and delivered my product on time and to the required spec. (if not better). As far as I am aware they do not operate a sweat shop or manufacture using child labour. I have no knowledge of them contravening the SEC or any other business ethics laws and while I have no idea where they source their raw materials I have not heard that it's from insustainable sources. Equally Andy's insight re. top grain and full grain leather was factual and accurate !

They make really nice jackets ( at least those I have owned and seen have been really nice) ... and if you buy direct or on ebay they go for really good prices. Andy has posted here and (if I was him) I'm sure BK has struck TFL off his target list long ago ( as has Stu at LW and probably HPA ) ..... never get involved in the politics of jacket makers ....... they are ALL as bad as one another.

P.S. I have no bias towards BK, have never workled for them, had any sort of business deal with them .... I did like their facebook page and had a pm from Andy Fazlon once thanking me for sticking up for them when he was getting lambasted on here unfairly IMHO ( perhaps that makes me a shill )

 

[pawineguy]

It does get a little tire-some this BKK bashing not to mention unfair. Andy/BKK are what they are. You don't have to follow them or buy their jackets but this constant running them down feels wrong and does not in my opinion do FL credibility much good. I kinda feel the moderators should be stepping in and saying enough is enough. They were quite quick to wag the finger at Andy when he stepped out of line here, where are they now?
Of course I could equally not read the thread but I dislike to see some one getting such a hard time and not be able to defend their corner. Is it not possible to live and let live and try and be a little more forgiving of others perceived short falls?
At the end of the day BKK make great jackets and that surly is what matters.

Mark, respectfully, many of us who get a bit bent out of shape over Andy's antics also post glowing comments when one of the members here posts a new BK jacket. You can find many threads where it's nothing but positive comments about a nice BK jacket. They DO make some great leathers... and, when an Aero jacket is posted and we think there is a problem with the fit, we are all pretty vocal about that also. It's actually been pretty quiet lately about BK, mainly because he let his jackets do his talking. What was an honest debate about leather turned into this because of his statements. Let's face it, especially in a community like this, we are not buying lifeless pieces of leather. We are buying the experience, we are buying the company, we live and breathe this stuff. If Andy wants to make it his marketing plan to put down other companies, and state "absolutes" that are demonstrably false, then he should expect a pretty strong response.

 

[Plumbline]

Now I see they've responded to the cuff width discussion...

Shouldnt sleeve cuffs with a button closure be more narrow than sleeve cuffs without?? Am I alone in this??

My Aero Halfbelt ( non button) and Halfbelt Deluxe ( button) are almost identical Bretron ( give or take 1/8" ) .. .equally my AL Dakota (buttoned) and my Roadster ( non buttoned) are similar - the buttoned cuff on the Dakota is 1/8" wider than the Roadster) ... all 4 jackets are similar in width to the BK ones on the facebook page +/- 1/2" .. but for the record I have wide wrists (8 1/2") and fairly Popeye-esq forearms so none of these are an issue to me at all.

 

[Superfluous]

But Superfluous .. that's not what you did ..... and it's not what you said.

That is exactly what I did, and what I said:

I am not suggesting that you cannot endorse BK products. That is well within your rights. However, when doing so, you should be upfront and candid about your profit motive. For example, Charles from HPA regularly endorses and promotes the products that he sells. He sometimes writes about his own ownership of these products. However, Charles is always very clear that he is more than simply an owner of the products. Charles is always very clear that he is selling the products, and he shares his ownership experiences with full disclosure of his profit motive. Nothing wrong with that. That is the correct way to do it.

--------------------- ----------------------

but simply because a disgruntles ex TFL'er desides to post on their facebook page doesn't make them a bad company

First, the FB post was indisputably offensive. Second, BK allowed the offensive post to remain on its FB page for all to read and associate with BK. Third, BK responded to the offensive post. Fourth, when responding to the post, BK said nothing about the obviously offensive nature of the post. IMHO, that makes BK a bad company.