Better Deal - Optimo or VS

[rlk]

Lots of Blocks at Optimo and they've multiplied in recent years and plenty of 52 Blocks which is a standard even if unmentioned on the website offerings. The 52 is not as square as some earlier blocks and the crease does radically change the relationship between the sides of the crown as does squeezing out the pinch. I have 4 or 5 52 Blocks myself and none are totally straight(or identical). Side dents reduce the widest part of the crown dramatically and have a totally different profile. You can collapse in the top or bulge out the middle by manipulating the front pinches fore and aft and adjusting the steepness of the angle. The process has been streamlined with the model names and most find this much easier. There are even blocks so square you would likely not want to use them. Hard to access if you are not in Chicago or don't know. Compared to the mass of business it is a relative rarity for someone to want these styles.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Optimo has more blocks then what they have on the store shelves. The rafters of the garage behind the shop are stuffed with them.

 

[KingAndrew]

When I was in the Optimo shop last week, Graham told me, "We can make 'em as tall as you want." I went with the shapes of a couple of high-crowned models they had on the shelf (one was a one-off they had done for another customer). Although I had intended to ask about 52 blocks, I really liked the way that hat (similar in style to the Cagney) looked on my head, so I went with it. Trying different styles on is one of the advantages to visiting in person, as several have noted. It will be a month before my felt hats are finished and shipped, so I can't post any pics yet.

I can say that the felts I (er) felt at Optimo were nothing short of amazing. So soft and pliable, yet not floppy. I was especially impressed with some of the hairier selections (I ordered a hat in Tungsten, which feels like petting a kitten). The color choices are also amazing: jewel-like greens and blues, various orange-y brown hues (cognac), heathered felts with several colors like a fine tweed, natural silverbelly, all in addition to the usual brown, black, and grey. All of the colors have a richness and subtlety that is impossible to fully convey in the "swatches" on the web site.

I also purchased two straws. The Milan has a relatively low teardrop crown (My head touches the top) with a very wide brim, but the proportions somehow look fantastic. And the Montecristi Panama I got was an "optimo" shape, so it is a tall, square crown by definition.

Optimo is not cheap, but they are very exacting about quality. The Panama I bought is an incredibly light, beautiful hat, but they sold it to me at a considerable discount, due to "flaws" that I found to be well-nigh invisible. That said, it was still much more expensive than the "budget" panamas I've owned in the past. But the quality of this hat is exponentially higher than any other straw I've owned or even handled. So I feel like the price was certainly justified.

I haven't yet purchased any hats from Art, but the hearty endorsements of so many Loungers indicate that you won't go wrong with him, either. But I will gladly put in a strong thumbs-up for Optimo. Not only is the quality incredible, but both Graham and Tiffani were incredibly friendly and helpful and just visiting the shop is both thrilling and educational for anyone who loves hats.

 

[delectans]

In my estimation, expense and value are relative terms which are subjective at best, and cannot be deliberated meaningfully in a public forum where often vociferous opinions are guided by personal bias. Best to evaluate each hatter's work for yourself and make an informed decision based upon your own conclusions.

 

[TheDane]

Best to evaluate each hatter's work for yourself and make an informed decision based upon your own conclusions.

I'll second that, but unfortunately it's not really possible to evaluate a hatter's work without actually holding one of his/her hats. Often that's not an option with web-based shops.

Second best in my world would be to ask people, who own hats from different hatters, and then try to evaluate and average their opinions. But of course we have to be aware, that opinions will be biased - just as any other advice from our surroundings.

 

[wine65]

Well stated Al. Certainly there are objective qualities to measure such as raw material and construction. However, the final form, the true artistic qualities of the hat, becomes a very subjective measure and one in which people will have strong opinions. That being stated you won't go wrong with either of these fine hatters creations.
Steve

 

[kaosharper1]

Well stated Al. Certainly there are objective qualities to measure such as raw material and construction. However, the final form, the true artistic qualities of the hat, becomes a very subjective measure and one in which people will have strong opinions. That being stated you won't go wrong with either of these fine hatters creations.
Steve

Certainly the quality of both hatters is excellent. But the thread is about which is a "better deal." Optimo goes for a 30% to 60% premium for a 100% beaver hat body. The question is whether that premium is worth the difference in quality and service. That is subjective. In an "efficient" market the fact that Optimo continues to be able to charge more than VS would imply the answer is "yes" since this price difference has persisted for some time. But it is up to the individual to decide whether the premium that Optimo charges is worth it, or is their quality and service so much better that they should charge an even higher premium. If so, Optimo is the "better deal." If not, VS is the "better deal." This is assuming, of course, that style isn't a difference since both hatters could make any hat we would like by just giving them direction.

I'm speaking here as an economist and the term "better deal" which is a little ambiguous anyway.

 

[Tomasso]

it's not really possible to evaluate a hatter's work without actually holding one of his/her hats.

But even if you have the oportunity to hold a hatter's work in your hands you will not be able to tell if it met the needs of the client. Did the dimensions of the hat work harmoniously with the shape of the client's face and physical stature? Was the color of the hat compatable with the client's skin tone? This is the criteria a buyer should use when he is considering the suitability of a hat. These important questions are easily answered when visiting a hat shop by simply trying on the hat under consideration. This criteria is very difficult if not impossible to apply in a remote transaction, whether custom or RTW.

 

[rlk]

Certainly the quality of both hatters is excellent. But the thread is about which is a "better deal." Optimo goes for a 30% to 60% premium for a 100% beaver hat body. T

This is no longer the case. Most are all Beaver now(not best for all finishes) the premium is for the Velours and the Silverbelly(pure belly fur Beaver natural and dyed). Pressure from "perceived" superiority led to that , not necessarily better felts.

 

[gtdean48]

Perception is all on the value side of the value to cost ratio which would have to be compared to determine the "better deal".
I say with both hatters, you get what you pay for. Therefore the ratio = 1 in both cases....

 

[job]

I just wonder about felt, ribbon, sweat band costs. Why is Optimo so high. I would think the better VALUE would have to go to VS for most hats.

 

[gtdean48]

I just wonder about felt, ribbon, sweat band costs. Why is Optimo so high. I would think the better VALUE would have to go to VS for most hats.

Felt bodies come from 2 different sources made specifically for the hatters, ribbon is irreplaceable antique stock & sweatbands are custom made to each hatter's specification. The skills, techniques, processes, tricks of the trade are unique to the hatter as well. Apples to Oranges as they say...

 

[job]

We are talking $ hundreds of dollars more for a Optimo. I better be able to tell a huge difference.
Is Optimos felt, ribbon, and sweat bands THAT much better.

 

[gtdean48]

They both are selling top of the line models north of $1000.
Value is in the end product, not the raw materials. Raw material comparison just establishes some baseline like canvas & paint does for painters or pen, ink & paper does for poets....

 

[jlee562]

Optimo is that high because the market can bear it. As Tom mentioned a page or so back, they also have brick and mortar stores. And yes. To an extent, you're also paying for the name. You're paying for the exclusivity (is that even a word?) of their colors, most of which are 'retired' after a year.

 

[jlee562]

They both are selling top of the line models north of $1000.
Value is in the end product, not the raw materials. Raw material comparison just establishes some baseline like canvas & paint does for painters or pen, ink & paper does for poets....

+1

Great analogy!

Is a Jackson Pollock really worth that much more than a Kandinsky?

 

[suitedcboy]

The hard part about value is that the definition of value means different things to each of us. The definition of quality means different things too. I find that I like hats that are stiffer and thicker. I do appreciate a fine pouncing leaving the hat with a soft feel but I like the crease of my hats to stay put. I seek order I guess and hollywood creases make my OCD side go nuts. I want the brim and crown to stay put and be symmetric. As a result, my expectations are not met by a fine malleable felt that is thin. I would pay more and perceive greater value to be had by a hat I can throw across the room and then pick it up and looks like it did before the toss.

 

[TheDane]

With all due respect, a contributing factor could also be the differences in marketing. About a month ago - when complimented on his Keikari interview - Art mentioned that he sucks at promotion (his own words), but this was a beginning. It's a bit hard to argue on that

I have never been to Optimo's shop, but I know a lot of good stories about their history, ideologies, work process, materials, suppliers (panama/milan), etc. I've been told in very professionally produced text, imagery and video - and I know the shop, it's decoration and quite a lot of it's physical layout. I probably would feel most comfortable, walking into the shop, and I would immediately recognize Graham, no matter where in the world I would bump into him.

When it comes to storytelling, I find Graham holds a very strong hand - and maybe even the strongest on the custom felt market. Especially when selling to customers outside FL, I would guess that to have quite an impact. At least it has on every other market these days. I can't know for sure if he does, but I wouldn't find it strange if Graham used his great communication skills to give the prices an extra notch. I sure would, if I could

Generally I don't see much point in comparing extremely skilled artists/craftsmen on a product of this level. Both hatters make some of the best crafted hats out there, but as others have said: A detail I like, my neighbour may dislike. Although some of their techniques may differ, differences in actual quality is probably next to nada.

 

[rlk]

The biggest differences that are objective:

VS has lower price point felts available that Optimo does not. Colors also differ.

Optimo has felt types (Fleck, Velour, many weights) that VS does not. Colors again differ.

If you have an idea for something they do not show online--the process of creation likely will differ.

-- Graham is a fine craftsman and can make your desired hat when given a photo or description(when you know what you want). Tiffany also is a good judge of style color and proportion to suggest when she knows/sees you.

--However, Art, also a craftsman, enjoys the creative process of making something original and will be more interactive when the buyer needs or wants that input.

Do you need a hat Designer or a particular Color or Finish? Your choice may be easier.

 

[frussell]

The difference between the two for me has been the service/repair aspect. I've had work done on old hats by both, with some fine results. On the other hand, Art has never gotten an order wrong, nor has he ever sent me a big hat crammed in a small box. Optimo has done both. They made the wrong one right, for the most part, but Art is still 100% accurate from my experience. Maybe this has to do with operation size. Frank