Best of Moderns that might compare to vintage

[babs]

In the sticky thread there's a powerful statement (don't have the exact wording) but alludes to the idea that the felt and/or other quality criteria in modern hats don't come close to the quality of vintage hats. (Not counting the specially custom high-end, but among the mainstream)

Instructional question from the newb:
Which brands and/or styles/collections of current production hats come close or possibly even surpass the good ole' vintage hats?

From my initial research I'll go ahead and say I'm guessing the Akubras may be mentioned.. Or maybe not.. Though I know there are fans.. I'll probably get one soon. But what else among the moderns

Also and possibly more importantly WHY? What makes such-n-such a great great hat?

Newb on my quest for knowledge from ye wise experts. Might narrow it to felt's.. I'm sure a whole other "straw/milan/panama" thread is a whole other ball game. Lots of good threads I see already on them too.

 

[Damon Falzone]

Guerra hats

On a recent visit to Worth & Worth in NYC I had a chance to try on some Guerras, made in Italy. I particularly liked one in a chestnut color, a not so common color, but very rich looking. The hat was finished very well and was priced at least $125. less than an equivalent new Borsalino and was a much nicer hat. Guerra hats are definitely worthy of a hat-lover's consideration.

 

[Viper Man]

At the risk of sounding elitist (really, I'm not!), I say don't bother comparing vintage felt to modern "production" hats. If you want a modern hat that will compare to vintage, custom is the only way to go. [huh]

 

[RP McMurphy]

Akubra

I own two: a Fed IV Deluxe, and a Whippet.

Through my limited experience with true vintage hats, I have to say that the Akubras simply don't have the soft touch or crease quality of most vintage hats. The Akubra felts are rougher and thicker... designed to take a beating rather than a gentle, creased form.

THAT BEING SAID: The lower price of the Akubras, and their enduring style, makes them the "social" equivalent of a golden age hat. During the depression, or during the war years, most men would only own one or two hats (felt hats, I don't know the rules on tweed caps) at any given time. But I highly doubt your average man could afford a custom made hat. Thus, the Akubra to me seems to be the modern equivalent of the everyday hat. No, it might not be as fine as a Borsalino, but the relatively low price tag allows one to not fear the rain, wind, or snow. It's a hat you can toss down and go to work with... a very "golden age" attitude.


RP

 

[gtdean48]

I don't think any modern felt will reach a level playing field with vintage because the chemicals used back then are no longer allowed. Sure, custom hatters today can pounce a 100% beaver to a very incredible hand but no production hat will touch that or a vintage. I like the way my Akubras age after having a good rain soaking but pretty sure I won't live long enough to see if it ever gets close to hardly worn vintage Royal Stetson, let alone a 3X.

 

[mayserwegener]

At the risk of sounding elitist (really, I'm not!), I say don't bother comparing vintage felt to modern "production" hats. If you want a modern hat that will compare to vintage, custom is the only way to go. [huh]

Are you comparing durability or style regarding modern custom hats vs. vintage production hats?

 

[hailey greenhat]

Ditto

new wont compare to old, the make was better people cared about what they were making then, custom is the way to go if you want new with quality. [huh]

 

[babs]

Good info.. This is what I was hoping for.. Info on what makes a great hat.

Yeah on manufacturing, I remember reading something somewhere about even Mercury being used in the process.. Not to get too much into it, but safe to say the processes now for felt production result in a different product.

New Apple from Old Apple even from same tree:
So even for example Stetson.. Not knowing so much about their "levels" but I assume 3X means their "good stuff". So a modern 3X still is going to be a different felt product than vintage, then. What about it is different / more or less desirable?

... I guess what I'm really after is what to look for in the felt?

Given that with that Akubra input, some are better for real-world practical use and made to take it in comparison to others.. And other felts are better for highly refined dress hats.. maybe. ? First thing I noticed in the Biltmore made Miller I won was the felt was flexible/malleable. I could work with the bash.. It didn't feel like the hat was going to crack if I worked on it. Also a bit softer than I expected. Felt like with some steam, I could rebash it completely if I wanted. Just feels "nice" for lack of better words that I'm looking for in my "edumacation". And I'm sure that Biltmore surely isn't a high-end fur felt, but compared to the junk I've ever really been exposed to, I instantly became a fan.

hehehe.. This thread is the equivalent of a kid asking a trusted old timer in a good hat shop (which there are NONE here) and getting the tour... "See this hat here sonny.. It's this and that and this".. Now look at this one. Feel that difference.. see that band, the welt, etc etc.. Now that's a darn good hat".

 

[Topdog]

The new stetson soveriegn Quality hats are Great!

I have two new stetson soveriegn quality hats that compare favorably to the 30 or so vintage dobbs, borso's, lee's and cavanaghs that i have. Do not discount the quality of the new stetsons. I wear them all and love them all.

The new soveriegn quality stetson hats are great hats.!!!!!

 

[Lefty]

Start off by reading the Open Road Guild thread for information on the different grades that Stetson has offered over a long period. The quality of a given grade has changed over time, so that a 3x from the 40s is superior to one from the 60s. To really learn what makes one felt better than another, there's no substitute for handling hats. Ideas like "thin but extremely dense" mean nothing without experience.

Read many threads, buy a few hats. Read more, buy better hats.

 

[KeyGrip]

Given that with that Akubra input, some are better for real-world practical use and made to take it in comparison to others.. And other felts are better for highly refined dress hats.. maybe. ?

Are you asking if Akubra uses different felts for different hats, the answer is yes. With regards to Akubra only, most of their hats are fairly stiff, so they're at home in rough conditions and inclement weather. Others, like the Sydney and Stylemaster, are softer and lighter. They conform more readily to the shape of your head.

... I guess what I'm really after is what to look for in the felt?

That is a good question, but it depends on what purpose you have for the hat. Daily wear? Infrequent formal occasions? Horseback riding? Etc.

 

[babs]

Are you asking if Akubra uses different felts for different hats, the answer is yes. With regards to Akubra only, most of their hats are fairly stiff, so they're at home in rough conditions and inclement weather. Others, like the Sydney and Stylemaster, are softer and lighter. They conform more readily to the shape of your head.

That is a good question, but it depends on what purpose you have for the hat. Daily wear? Infrequent formal occasions? Horseback riding? Etc.

Ah.. Good questions.. Depends on the style.. Dress fed's typically with suit, moderate to infrequent, but also hats appropriate for dress-casual modern wear cold seasons. But like my little stingy brim Miller.. I'm betting that hat will see time with jacket and jeans as well.. Good Fed IV territory I bet. The little Miller looks like a versatile hat.. Might be a faux pas, but I could see wearing it with a grey pin-stripe suit just as easy. ooops.. Now we're getting into fashion.. and I'm reeeeally gonna show how ignorant I am.

 

[mayserwegener]

new wont compare to old, the make was better people cared about what they were making then, custom is the way to go if you want new with quality. [huh]

This is not always the case. For example I would put a Zapf hat (small machine production) up against any modern custom regarding durability and construction methods. Quality has nothing to do with style.

 

[rlk]

We greatly overestimate and even mythologize vintage quality, making large generalizations. One can certainly say the quality of the "average" hat has decreased. How can one possibly define "best" felt given the range of possible fur sources--rabbit(wild or not), hare ,muskrat,nutria, beaver,mink, etc......) thickness,stiffness,weight,length of fur and degree of smoothness the hatter aims for. Some may be better for particular uses, some preferred for style purposes and some desired for entirely subjective reasons. As to chemicals, Mercury was banned in the USA for hats in 1941, and most of us would consider many hats made after that date to be fine quality products. Many of the vintage hats beloved here were merely decent quality mass-produced products of their time, more remarkable for their style than a hypothetical felt "quality". There are only a limited number of sources currently for felts so I would imagine that some of the same raw materials go into hats of a wide range of price and perceived quality. Any piece of felt can be pounced and some are not intended to be. Some mass-production is of a very high standard and some "custom" hatters can be merely more expensive. The felt issue is really fuzzy. As a specific example, I have 7 Borsalino hats,1930's-1990's, and I can honestly state that no two have the same felt(requiring no particular expertise to detect). How can one decide which is best? Obviously some things are near-cardboard junk(even vintage examples exist). Construction quality issues are a bit more obvious. There is always a range of quality at any time not inextricably linked to price alone.

 

[Sargon]

In my opinion the reason for the high quality felt from vintage hats is simply the economy of scale. Even the smallest name brands out there were probably making more hats per year than the most prolific hat companies today. Since everybody wore a hat back then competition was fierce. Many more sourses available for felt and competition between them as well.

 

[Tone]

We greatly overestimate and even mythologize vintage quality, making large generalizations. One can certainly say the quality of the "average" hat has decreased. How can one possibly define "best" felt given the range of possible fur sources--rabbit(wild or not), hare ,muskrat,nutria, beaver,mink, etc......) thickness,stiffness,weight,length of fur and degree of smoothness the hatter aims for. Some may be better for particular uses, some preferred for style purposes and some desired for entirely subjective reasons. As to chemicals, Mercury was banned in the USA for hats in 1941, and most of us would consider many hats made after that date to be fine quality products. Many of the vintage hats beloved here were merely decent quality mass-produced products of their time, more remarkable for their style than a hypothetical felt "quality". There are only a limited number of sources currently for felts so I would imagine that some of the same raw materials go into hats of a wide range of price and perceived quality. Any piece of felt can be pounced and some are not intended to be. Some mass-production is of a very high standard and some "custom" hatters can be merely more expensive. The felt issue is really fuzzy. As a specific example, I have 7 Borsalino hats,1930's-1990's, and I can honestly state that no two have the same felt(requiring no particular expertise to detect). How can one decide which is best? Obviously some things are near-cardboard junk(even vintage examples exist). Construction quality issues are a bit more obvious. There is always a range of quality at any time not inextricably linked to price alone.

:arated:
That is about as rational and sensible as the explanation can get.

 

[barrowjh]

I doubt that chemicals had so much to do with it as does time; during our tour of the Winchester Hat Factory (makers of felt hat 'blanks') the proprietor there lamented that no matter how hard they tried (including tweaking the amount/mix of carroting chemicals used by the raw fur processors in Portugal via feedback to them), you just cannot make new felt feel like the best of the 50 year-old felt. On one of the threads here there was a discussion about how Borsalino used to advertise (in vintage times) that their felt had been 'aged' a year or so before the hats were finished. In past times, hats were blocked and cleaned by the owner from time to time, and each successive steaming/reblocking probably helped soften the felt just that much more.

The 'lite' beaver that Winchester produces (to be finished by a custom hatter) is likely the closest you will get to vintage. I have one finished out by Art Fawcett, and there are many other hatters here that use their felt (Mike Moore aka Major Moore, Gus @ batsakes, etc). I also have a 'pure' beaver produced by Beaver Brand (felt blanks imported), and I would wager that it is the best of the modern 'factory' hats, but would rather not get into a comparison of factory-made vs custom (Art Fawcett, Mike Moore, etc). A hat made for you by a custom hatter, building it to fit your unique noggin (using a conformer apparatus to model your head), is really a fine experience and worth every cent you might pay above 'stock' grade factory hats.

 

[Tone]

Does anyone have a modern hat (off of whichever greatest felt since sliced bread) that is old enough in time duration of a vintage felt in order to legitimately compare how it behaves and feels over the same span of years?

 

[rlk]

In my opinion the reason for the high quality felt from vintage hats is simply the economy of scale. Even the smallest name brands out there were probably making more hats per year than the most prolific hat companies today. Since everybody wore a hat back then competition was fierce. Many more sourses available for felt and competition between them as well.

I agree 100%. That's why the average level was better and cheaper. Many brands, however, made "stylish" hats that competed more by price than ultimate quality. If a large enough market existed today a quality level matching the average vintage hat(ignoring the effects of age alone) could be achieved at a reasonable(according to the market again) price. Perhaps the quality of the finest vintage hats would be more problematic. I have a number of hats of great age(1930's for example) from top manufacturers that exhibit a full range of felt qualities(stiff, rough, soft fine etc.) so I'm not sure how much that accounts for. Obviously repeated washing and sanding would soften and smooth a hat if that was your ultimate standard but you could do that to a modern hat too.

 

[Tone]

So with the majority of custom U.S. hatters using the same felt supplier (Winchester) do any of you know of Factory made hats using Winchester's felt also?
Why aren't they?