Bespoke Simmons Bilt

[ButteMT61]

Van hit it - it wasn't "just" stolen patterns, goods, etc. - they took employees of Aero - many had spent years upon years there. What did they know? Hard to say. I've not heard anything about that, but what makes an employee that's had a good job for years leave with a guy like that, and what are the chances they didn't know anything? To me, it is a done deal - never would I buy from them or give them any positive press. Someone is employed? Great. So are drug dealers and pimps. Sorry, but at some point, one must take a stand and say no to something just because it's "cheaper".
But hey, if you're OK with them, by all means...

 

[K-Pants]

Van hit it - it wasn't "just" stolen patterns, goods, etc. - they took employees of Aero - many had spent years upon years there. What did they know? Hard to say. I've not heard anything about that, but what makes an employee that's had a good job for years leave with a guy like that, and what are the chances they didn't know anything? To me, it is a done deal - never would I buy from them or give them any positive press. Someone is employed? Great. So are drug dealers and pimps. Sorry, but at some point, one must take a stand and say no to something just because it's "cheaper".
But hey, if you're OK with them, by all means...

So, Simmons Bilt workers are on par with drug pushers and pimps?

 

[K-Pants]

Tell them to go and get their own patterns, then maybe we'll talk - they're making money on the back of hard-earned knowledge and skill stolen from others.

I ordered an SB model based on a jacket made by Block Built in the 1940s.

 

[Mark]

Van hit it - it wasn't "just" stolen patterns, goods, etc. - they took employees of Aero - many had spent years upon years there. What did they know? Hard to say. I've not heard anything about that, but what makes an employee that's had a good job for years leave with a guy like that, and what are the chances they didn't know anything? To me, it is a done deal - never would I buy from them or give them any positive press. Someone is employed? Great. So are drug dealers and pimps. Sorry, but at some point, one must take a stand and say no to something just because it's "cheaper".
But hey, if you're OK with them, by all means...

I think that's a bit OTT but I respect your view on the matter even if I disagree. Has any one asked SB for their take on events?

 

[K-Pants]

I think this thread may have taken a different turn

 

[Monitor]

I don't recall a SB thread ever taking a different turn than this. XD

 

[Edward]

Well maybe so, but aren't most of these patterns decades old and been copied by many makers?

Patterns are not the same thing as designs. You are correct that the designs with AL/SB share in common with Aero - as with other designs (most obviously the A2!) which many makers reproduce - are decades old, and can be made by anyone. Patterns, on the other hand, *do* enjoy legal protection in copyright. It was established at the criminal trial (though not relevant to the criminal charges, as this type of copyright infringement is a matter of civil law) that Will Lauder reproduced these designs for Alexander Leathers / Simmonds Bilt by copying Aero's *patterns*. They would have been within their legal rights to buy one of everything in the Aero line and simply disaasemble, make their own pattern from it, then have it graded for all sizes and use that, as the *design* is not protected, but the legal problem was copying the Aero *patterns* without permission. Minor tweaks to the design are not sufficient to evade copyright infringement. It seems a trivial issue to many as the end result - selling a similar or identical jacket - is the same. In the eyes of the law, however, the time and labour invested in creating the patterns is considered worthy of protection and you have to do it yourself, not take advantage of someone else's hard work in producing them. AL/SB of course are equally protected by the same copyright law should any of their own, original pattern be copied by one of their employees who then moves on to a new start up and uses them there.

The whole debate is rather stale by this point, but the law is really quite straightforward.

 

[Superfluous]

 

[Superfluous]

Hypothetically:

Monster Chip Co. (“MCC”) invested hundreds of millions of dollars to develop state of the art proprietary computer chips. Gonzo is a long time MCC employee. Winchester is a wealthy guy (made his money selling shoes). Winchester and Gonzo hatch a plan whereby: (1) Winchester and Gonzo will create a new compony called Winchester Chip Company (“WCC”) funded by Winchester; (2) Gonzo will steal MCC’s proprietary chip technology and bring it with him to WCC; (3) by using MCC’s proprietary chip technology – that MCC spent hundreds of millions of dollars to develop – WCC will be able to quickly commence operations and sales with essentially no research and development costs, and immediately compete against MCC; (4) WCC – using MCC’s proprietary chip technology – will sell products that are essentially indistinguishable from MCC’s products, but for less money (MCC will be able to offer these lower prices for the same products because, having stolen WCC’s proprietary chip technology, WCC had no research and development costs that otherwise would have to be factored into the price). Winchester and Gonzo successfully open WCC using the chip technology that Gonzo stole from MCC. Gonzo was subsequently convicted of criminal conduct associated with his theft of MCC’s proprietary chip technology and sent to prison. In an effort to distance itself from its illegal origins, WCC changed is name to Don’t Hold Our Criminal Past Against Us, Ltd. (“DHOCPAU”). Under Winchester’s continued ownership and control, DHOCPAU continues to sell the same products predicated on the proprietary chip technology that Gonzo stole from MCC and brought to WCC/DHOCPAU, and for which Gonzo was sent to prison. DHOCPAU responds to criticism of its criminal origins by noting that the convicted thief, who helped to found WCC, is now in prison, and even though Winchester was firmly in bed with Gonzo when Gonzo stole MCC’s technology, and Winchester continues to sell the same products developed with the stolen chip technology, and Winchester has benefited handsomely from Gonzo’s theft, and Winchester was likely aware of the theft when it occurred, and Winchester was indisputably aware of the theft after Gonzo was convicted and sent to prison, and Winchester has never made amends, we – as consumers – should nevertheless continue to patronize Winchester’s successor company, DHOCPAU, notwithstanding its origins.

I, personally, DO hold their criminal past against them. DHOCPAU is dirty. Winchester is dirty. The mere arrest and departure of Gonzo changes nothing. I am not going to tender my hard earned money to such an enterprise and thereby support such obviously wrongful conduct.

But that’s just me. I do not hold it against anyone who disagrees, and I am not trying to change anyone's mind. These are purely subjective determinations.

To be clear, the foregoing is merely a hypothetical fiction created to generate discussion, with no relationship whatsoever to any actual events, persons or companies.

 

[Sloan1874]

I ordered an SB model based on a jacket made by Block Built in the 1940s.

And your point is? They've attempted to build a business on the back of another's intellectual and physical property, and by all accounts predicated its MO on the collapse of Aero. The whole basis of SB/AL is morally dubious, if you ask me. Sure, you can argue that there are countless examples of famous businesses that we all buy from that were built this way, but we're talking about a specific example where the details have been laid bare, there's little you can argue about.
People can buy what they like, but I don't think you can expect long-time Loungers to give SB / AL a pass because they're cheap.

 

[Superfluous]

I don't think you can expect long-time Loungers to give SB / AL a pass because they're cheap.

 

[ButteMT61]

So, Simmons Bilt workers are on par with drug pushers and pimps?

OK, pay attention. Mark stated "it provided someone with a living". And my retort was yes, so does being a pimp or a drug dealer - in reference to just because there's a "job", it doesn't make it right.
I stand by it, and actually, I think I've insulted drug dealers with that post...

 

[K-Pants]

And your point is? They've attempted to build a business on the back of another's intellectual and physical property, and by all accounts predicated its MO on the collapse of Aero. The whole basis of SB/AL is morally dubious, if you ask me. Sure, you can argue that there are countless examples of famous businesses that we all buy from that were built this way, but we're talking about a specific example where the details have been laid bare, there's little you can argue about.
People can buy what they like, but I don't think you can expect long-time Loungers to give SB / AL a pass because they're cheap.

The model I bought is ostensibly based on a design from the 1940s, not aero's. so don't feel my purchase is complicit in a theft. And I don't think that everyone at SB should be forever stained by the past, barred from plying their trade indefinitely. Others may disagree, but that's not my concern.

Which SB models are based on aero's? Is the guy out of jail now? Is he the CEO is SB? Is there another company that makes aero/SB-type jackets at an SB price point?

I read some of the court documents and it was dubious to be sure and the perpetrator sounds like a real d-bag. But from what I have read, SB jackets are sound. And the price point is friendly, which I found compelling.

And yes, people can buy whatever they like. I won't be judging anyone.

But I don't think this thread is about getting a pass for the perpetrator or SB; it's about bespoke SB products, no? Anyone have anything else to share about about bespoke SB jackets? Pics perhaps?

 

[K-Pants]

OK, pay attention. Mark stated "it provided someone with a living". And my retort was yes, so does being a pimp or a drug dealer - in reference to just because there's a "job", it doesn't make it right.
I stand by it, and actually, I think I've insulted drug dealers with that post...

I don't know that building jackets at SB is not "right"

 

[ButteMT61]

I don't know that building jackets at SB is not "right"

Let's just agree to disagree then and move on...but I appreciate all the experience and knowledge you've gained in your tenure here...

 

[Sloan1874]

The model I bought is ostensibly based on a design from the 1940s, not aero's. so don't feel my purchase is complicit in a theft. And I don't think that everyone at SB should be forever stained by the past, barred from plying their trade indefinitely. Others may disagree, but that's not my concern.

Which SB models are based on aero's? Is the guy out of jail now? Is he the CEO is SB? Is there another company that makes aero/SB-type jackets at an SB price point?

I read some of the court documents and it was dubious to be sure and the perpetrator sounds like a real d-bag. But from what I have read, SB jackets are sound. And the price point is friendly, which I found compelling.

And yes, people can buy whatever they like. I won't be judging anyone.

But I don't think this thread is about getting a pass for the perpetrator or SB; it's about bespoke SB products, no? Anyone have anything else to share about about bespoke SB jackets? Pics perhaps?

Maybe you'd be more comfortable at the Style Forum. I think they take a similar view to consumer ethics there.

 

[red devil]

Maybe you'd be more comfortable at the Style Forum. I think they take a similar view to consumer ethics there.

Ethics is a very complex subject... Do you buy anything from any major firm?

 

[Sloan1874]

Ethics is a very complex subject... Do you buy anything from any major firm?

I refer you to my previous post on this point.

 

[K-Pants]

Maybe you'd be more comfortable at the Style Forum. I think they take a similar view to consumer ethics there.

Good one Sloan (Tom Tom Crash)

 

[red devil]

I refer you to my previous post on this point.

Sure, but the details have been laid bare to use your expression on a lot of major companies... do you drink Coke?