Bespoke Hats in NYC?

[Cruiser]

'Bespoke' is actually a term which dates from the 17th century, when tailors held the full lengths of cloth in their premises.

When a customer chose a length of material, it was said to have “been spoken for”. Hence a tailor who makes your clothes individually, to your specific personal requirements, is called "bespoke". This is unlike “made-to-measure”, which simply uses a basic, pre-existing template pattern, which is then adjusted to roughly your individual measurements.'
from:thomas mahon, bespoke savile row tailor, london.

Cool. Thanks for passing this on.

 

[Cruiser]

Thanks for your suggestion. I don't spend enough time here to know who Art is though. How would I contact him?

Art Fawcett--see his post and website in this same thread. Also, you can email him at stone@vintagesilhouettes.com. If you look through back emails in this forum, you will see many pictures of the "bespoke" hats (in the true sense of the word as explained by Rick Blaine and others) made by Art for forum members--they far exceed in variety the examples listed on his web site. Art is a pleasure to work with and a craftsman/artist in creating hats, as you will see from his reputation on this forum. His prices for 100% beaver felt hats represent a true value.

 

[Tomasso]

After looking around at some length, I found that the best bespoke hat deal in in New York City is to pick up the phone and call Art.

How does the remote fitting process work?

 

[Cruiser]

How does the remote fitting process work?

Art may wish to respond to this. In the meantime, http://www.vintagesilhouettes.com/ordering.htm.

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Bah, humbug!

As you all probably know , top hats aren't a common thing today . There is one major manufacturer left in the USA that makes them . We can order them for a special order if a person wants a standard or collapsable top hat . Also available is a high crown fur felt top hat by Selentino .
Unless you are going to a realy formal wedding or going to drive a horse and buggy , leave the top hat home!!



Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

 

[besdor]

Tony , I have to admit you do look good in that topper ! Bur seriously , when was the last time you saw someone walk down Main st USA wearing a top hat .



Steven

 

[nulty]

walk..no...run, yes....

 

[Art Fawcett]

Tomasso, the first thing that I do in the bespoke process is to send you a conformer that allows me to get your head shape. When I receive it back I then make the hat to fit that shape. It takes a bit of time but well worth it.

Art

 

[Sardou]

Tony's A/C Bill?

Tony, you've nailed that 19th century German industrialist look! It's terrific!

But just how often do you wear that coat in Southern California??

Sardou

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

My outside thermometer thingie reads 52.5F as I write this.

 

[Chris Rimby]

Found an answer to my own question (kind of...not exactly in NYC, but close enough)

http://www.davebrownhats.com/

 

[Tomasso]

not exactly in NYC, but close enough)

It's within 350 miles.

 

[My Pop's Closet]

Whatever happened to Jaylord Hatters of NYC? I traveled to NYC about 18 years ago looking for Jaylord Hatters but couldn't locate it. Fortunately, I discovered Worth & Worth.

 

[Fletch]

They're history now too - at least the Madison Ave. store. JJ's is still going at 30th and Fifth. They have some competition in Cheap Jack, who is now nearby with piles (literally) of vintage felts, mostly tourist-priced, but there are a few deals. (Just don't believe the sale flier. "Buy one, get one free under $100" means they both have to be under $100, not just the cheaper one. That Jack is a shrewd cookie.)

I went looking for Knox' not long ago - near the Hotel New Yorker - but couldn't find them. Hopefully they haven't bitten it too.

 

[FoxxHatters]

I'll Toss My Hat in the Ring! I made it today.

<a href="http://s259.photobucket.com/albums/hh288/baronhats/?action=view&current=101_4231.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh288/baronhats/101_4231.jpg" border="0" alt="Gunner's House Of Hat's, Foxx Hatters, Gunner Foxx"></a>

 

[carldelo]

They're history now too - at least the Madison Ave. store. JJ's is still going at 30th and Fifth. They have some competition in Cheap Jack, who is now nearby with piles (literally) of vintage felts, mostly tourist-priced, but there are a few deals. (Just don't believe the sale flier. "Buy one, get one free under $100" means they both have to be under $100, not just the cheaper one. That Jack is a shrewd cookie.)

I went looking for Knox' not long ago - near the Hotel New Yorker - but couldn't find them. Hopefully they haven't bitten it too.

Worth & Worth is back, but it's not an old-time hat emporium like it used to be. They're on 57th St, on an upper floor, pretty nice setup when I visited, and they're pleasant, too. A little pricey, but the wares seem nice.

 

[carldelo]

'Bespoke' is actually a term which dates from the 17th century, when tailors held the full lengths of cloth in their premises.

When a customer chose a length of material, it was said to have “been spoken for”. Hence a tailor who makes your clothes individually, to your specific personal requirements, is called "bespoke". This is unlike “made-to-measure”, which simply uses a basic, pre-existing template pattern, which is then adjusted to roughly your individual measurements.'
from:thomas mahon, bespoke savile row tailor, london.

This is a nice story, but, like many word origin stories is probably a fanciful guess that has been given the veneer of truth through repetition. 'Bespoke' is a newer form of 'bespoken', which is simply the past participle of 'bespeak'. It doesn't have anything to do with bolts of cloth, and could equally be applied to custom shoes, hats, or anything else for that matter.

From the Compact OED:

• bespeak, 5. to speak for; to arrange for, engage beforehand; to 'order' (goods)
  
• bespoken, 2. ordered, commissioned, arranged for
  
• bespoke, 2. of goods; ordered to be made, as distinguished from READY-MADE; also said of a tradesman who makes goods to order
  
  

Here's a nice description from the Word Detective archives - a great resource for word origins and my favorite word-nerd site, 2nd article down the page:

http://www.word-detective.com/back-h2.html

 

[Tomasso]

This is a nice story, but, like many word origin stories is probably a fanciful guess that has been given the veneer of truth through repetition.

Yes, but sometimes these stories are accurate. Have you any facts which refute the tailoring story?

'Bespoke' is a newer form of 'bespoken', which is simply the past participle of 'bespeak'.

Like both the OED and Word Detective references, the derivation of the word doesn't speak to its origin.

It doesn't have anything to do with bolts of cloth, and could equally be applied to custom shoes, hats, or anything else for that matter.

How do you know that the word didn't begin in tailoring and its use subsequently spread to other goods?


I don't know if the tailoring story is true or not but nothing you've brought forth refutes it.[huh]

 

[adamjaskie]

My outside thermometer thingie reads 52.5F as I write this.

Heh, for me that's shirtsleeves weather. Maybe a light fleece vest in case it drops more, or a lighter sport coat.

But then again I live some 400 miles due north of Chicago; it's only been consistently in the high 40s/low 50s during the day for a little over a week.

Nice hat, though!


From the Online Etymology Dictionary entry for "bespoke"

"custom or custom-made, made to order," of goods, as distinguished from ready-made, 1755, earlier bespoken (1607), pp. of bespeak, in a sense of "to speak for, to arrange beforehand," a sense attested in bespeak from 1583. Bespeak is from O.E. besprecan "to speak about," also "to speak against" (see be- and speak).

 

[carldelo]

Proof? OK, not really...

Tomasso, it's true that I haven't disproved the story. Of course proving a negative is never easy, and in the case of a word originating hundreds of years ago, most likely impossible. But then again, the 'bolt of cloth' story is not proven either.

I am a logophile, and read the Word Detective column regularly. He responds often to questions of word origins that are based on stories similar to the tailor's tale. They are almost always incorrect - one of the red flags being that the stories seem too neat. This is mostly true, but not always.

Anyway, my opinion (not proved) that the 'bolt of cloth' story is not correct is based only partly on the fact that the story is too easy, rather it is based on the historical citations given in the Compact OED. These citations are taken from old books and periodicals and attempt to be a record of the earliest usages of a word, tracing its evolution in time. These are the citations of interest, all taken from the 'The Compact Oxford English Dictionary, New Edition', 1991:

1583 "There doe lye great kingdooms...bespoken for"
1602 "A lodging bespoken for him"
1607 "Here is bespoken work"
1688 "The six thousand pair of Shoes which he bispoke at Exeter"
1755 "At length the bespoke Play was to be enacted"
1807 "...an appearance of bespoken work"
1866 "The shoemaking trade...is divided into two departments, the bespoke and ready-made or sale business"
1884 "Boot Trade - Wanted...Saleswoman accustomed to Bespoke Trade"
1907 "His boots may have been 'bespokes' for anybody except him"
1908 "A 'bespoke tailor'"​

So the usage of 'bespoke' in reference to tailoring appears to be fairly recent. It seems the word was originally used in a general way to mean custom work, entering the garment industry in the context of custom shoes in the 17th century, 100 years later. It appears it was commonly used in the shoe and boot trade after that. The first citation in regard to tailoring is another 200 years down the road.

Does this prove anything? Not really, but there is no evidence to support the 'bolt of cloth' origin either. If anyone finds an earlier reference to bespoke tailoring, it should probably be sent to the OED to correct the etymology. OK, enough egg-headery, the sun has come out in NYC and I should go outside.

Cheers, Carl

PS it's interesting that the online etymology website refers to the quotes above by date, but doesn't give them verbatim. I think the content of the citations is critical to understanding the evolution of the word.