Become a Gentleman thread

[jamespowers]

Egad man - that's what the feudal system was all about - exploiting the peasantry.

That is my point exactly.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Egad man - that's what the feudal system was all about - exploiting the peasantry.

Also the capitalist system, and every other system that's been tried. Exploit people and keep 'em in their "station".

bk

 

[jamespowers]

Also the capitalist system, and every other system that's been tried. Exploit people and keep 'em in their "station".

Yeah sure. That explains Carnegy, Oprah, Cosby and a host of other people like my great grandparents who came here with nothing and made their fortunes. When I hear a story like that come out of Cuba or the former Communist Russia then I will believe all "systems" are equal.
Another thing, if we stink so much then why is it that people come here from other countries in droves to stay here in their "station." Geez if we lifted all immigration laws, the US would sink into the ocean from all the added weight of people. Geez!

Regards to all,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Just pushing some buttons.

bk:cheers1:

 

[Senator Jack]

I recollect a joke from Mad Magazine's Dave Berg.

Q: What's the difference between Captialism and Communism?
A: Under communism, man exploits man, but under capitalism, it's the other way around.

What a brilliant buch of writers they had back then.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Alright we've been off topic long enough, methinks. Who's for getting back on to what makes a gentleman? The other thing can go on elsewhere. I'm game. Who'll join me?

Does gentle-man exploit gentle-man? Just kidding

So what's the consensus? What makes one a gentleman? Money? Breeding? Tipping one's hat to a lady? We should make a lsit of gentlemanly and ungentlemanly things to do. And take a solemn vow to live by the list ...

bk

 

[Senator Jack]

Of course I'm going to get blasted by the dyed-in-the-wool capitalists here but I generally view rich as an un-gentlemanly lot. Why? Because ninety-five percent of them have made their fortunes in most un-gentlemanly way. And why ninety-five percent? Well I've always figured that out of the entire population of the world only five percent have any ethics, so in every race, creed, social group, girl scout troop, or whatever, ninety-five percent of it is going to be reprehensible right off the top. Let's take, for example, one fellow that I think the world can do without: Donald Trump.

Backed by politicians (read that as criminals) across the country, Trump misuses the law of eminent domain to oust people from their homes. This, so he can add a few more million to his bank account. Entire historic districts are threatened, demolished, in order to make way for yet another Trump hotel. Is this the act of a gentleman? With his limousines and expensive clothes, I'm sure Trump really believes he is a gentleman, but the displacing of people for wealth proves he is not.

The idea of a gentleman entrepreneur, I believe, exists only in the books of Ayn Rand. Still, Balzac put it best. 'Behind every great fortune there is a crime". How many gentleman criminals do we know?

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[jamespowers]

The idea of a gentleman entrepreneur, I believe, exists only in the books of Ayn Rand. Still, Balzac put it best. 'Behind every great fortune there is a crime". How many gentleman criminals do we know?

Geez, I feel sorry for you if that is your belief. The problem with it is reality. If you are a businessman such as I, then you realize right off the bat that you will never do business with a dishonest man because you always get burned. As a result you find dishonest businessmen do not last long in their industry unless they have an absolute monopoly---like the government.
As for eminent domain, I have fought against it for decades now. You are looking to the wrong source for blame though. That exists with state, local and federal governments who want to displace one property owner for the benefit of another who will pay them higher property tax---pure and simple. The businessmen take advantage of that stupidity but it always originates with government that "shops around" property for higher taxes. Senator, I am surprised you do not know that. I hold the current Supreme Court members--aside from the new one---responsible for their irresponsible and ridiculous ruling. I hope they do take away the property of every one of them that voted for it---using eminent domain.
In closing, let me say that I know many fine people who have been smart, determined and hard working enough to make their fortunes. None of them would I consider a scoundrel . They made their fortunes through farming, ranching, commodities, the stock market and owning their own businesses. No, Balzac was wrong. Alger was right.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Billingsgate]

The idea of a gentleman entrepreneur, I believe, exists only in the books of Ayn Rand. Still, Balzac put it best. 'Behind every great fortune there is a crime". How many gentleman criminals do we know?

I do not know whether that is necessarily true. However, I do know that - prior to 1066 - William the Conqueror had been known as William the ba***rd.

Beyond that, we should note that "No man is a gentleman in the eyes of his butler," which suggests that - perhaps - if we aspire to be gentlemen we should refrain from employing one.

Beyond that, note that, in Booth Tarkington's Penrod, at one point the twelve-year-old hero is deeply offended at being characterized as "a little gentleman" by some elder and seeks revenge. (As I recall he lines his hat with tar.).

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Perhaps the meaning was not dishonest (an attribute certainly not gentlemanly) but rather ethically unsound? We have to account for translation and the people Bazac was describing. The "revolutionaries" who'd become corrupted by their own greed and were by the time he was writing running mills/mines in which people were trodden into the ground, simply in the pursuit of greater profit.

This i would also describe as ungentlemanly behaviour, as it displays a certain disregard from the suffering of others (the whole families working 15 hours a day underground). A gentleman should always care about the effects of his actions/policies.

Criminals don't get far in business, as you say. But a-holes sure do have a habit of making it to the top ... That ruthlessness which will stop at nothing to be top dog (including destroying anyone who gets in your way (see Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Rothschild etc etc etc)) is i think what people who have a problem with uber-capitalism are getting at. Such behaviour (willful destruction of others) precludes the monicker of gentleman.

bk

 

[jamespowers]

Criminals don't get far in business, as you say. But a-holes sure do have a habit of making it to the top ... That ruthlessness which will stop at nothing to be top dog (including destroying anyone who gets in your way (see Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Rothschild etc etc etc)) is i think what people who have a problem with uber-capitalism are getting at. Such behaviour (willful destruction of others) precludes the monicker of gentleman.

Sure I suppose Bill Gates can give more than the billion dollars he has already given to various needy causes. What an uber-capitalist.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Guilt

bk

 

[Senator Jack]

Originally posted by James Powers:

As for eminent domain, I have fought against it for decades now. You are looking to the wrong source for blame though. That exists with state, local and federal governments who want to displace one property owner for the benefit of another who will pay them higher property tax---pure and simple. The businessmen take advantage of that stupidity but it always originates with government that "shops around" property for higher taxes.

Ergo, any law passed by any government prescinds ethics. And if that's the case, then George Bush has no right to claim that abortion is morally wrong. The law has been passed and people are using it to amelieorate their own lives.

As for Bill 'I got my hand in yer pocket' Gates, we're all painfully aware of the products he has released, full of security flaws, that the end user has to pay to get fixed. This is thievery, pure and simple. Ergo, Bill Gates is a thief. A weathy one who, as the Baron put it, feels guilt, but a thief nonetheless.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Guilt

bk

Tax write off.

 

[Lincsong]

Is Bill Gates a Gentleman?

The richest man in the world dresses like a college preppy. Is he a gentleman? Don't know him so I can't say. Don't care for his politics either. But, did he have a product that benefited the world? Yes. Is it purely coincidental that now, people who had not a dime now have a dollar? That children who did not have shoes wear them and have their teeth fixed? That because of his product commerce moves more freely. Is it a coincidence that more jobs have been created? Let's not live in a "zero sum" mentality. New and better products benefits all. That is why the uber-establishment GM is faltering. It lost it's ability to come up with new and better products. Why plunk down $30,000 for a Buick with a 45 year old push rod V-6 and 4 speed transmission when the same can be paid for a Toyota Avalon with an overhead cam engine and 6 speed auto? Maybe 30 years ago Japan was dumping cars on the U.S. but that is not the case today, GM is fat, old and sloppy. There is no creativity there.
I think a gentleman is one who does not speak ill to or about others, never uses foul language, keeps cool headed and even tempered, takes pride in his appearance, house, car and most of all his family. He respects opinions different than his but is not condescending to those disagree.

 

[Billingsgate]

I think a gentleman is one who does not speak ill to or about others, never uses foul language, keeps cool headed and even tempered, takes pride in his appearance, house, car and most of all his family. He respects opinions different than his but is not condescending to those disa

Fielding's Squire Western, by your definition would not be a gentleman.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Oh boy.

I knew deep down this argument would get to utilitarianism at some point, but i always want to start crying when an argument goes down that road. Because that is a dead end.

Gradgrind is alive and well.

bk, signing out

 

[Section10]

Ergo, any law passed by any government prescinds ethics. And if that's the case, then George Bush has no right to claim that abortion is morally wrong. The law has been passed and people are using it to amelieorate their own lives. Senator Jack

Of course no civil law prescinds ethics (and I think that's what you're saying in a left-handed way). A man's ethics are independent of law. We are not lawbreakers because laws allow societies to function, but they are not the ultimate morality. I would like to say men should follow their conscience, but since so many people's consciences have dried up and blown away, that doesn't seem like a good method anymore. Obedience to law is often a matter of fear of punishment and that may not be such a bad thing. It has kept me safe from time to time. I think civil disobedience is morally legitimate at times as long as one is willing to deal with the consequences (although personal violence is never right).

I'd like to see more thought on what a gentleman is, rather than what he does since we all seem to agree that one can be a scoundrel and still convincingly act like a gentleman.

 

[Billingsgate]

I'd like to see more thought on what a gentleman is, rather than what he does since we all seem to agree that one can be a scoundrel and still convincingly act like a gentleman.

Aeschylus: "Ouk estein 'o aristotitos all' edein" ( "Not to seem the best, but to be.")

Of Lord Byron, "He was mad, bad, and dangerous to know."

Combining these two, we could conclude that Alcibiades, whatever his faults may have been, was a gentleman ( or as the Greeks put it, "kalloi kagathoi" ).

(It's Saturday moring and I'm feeling grumpy, so I thought I'd throw some Greek at you. )

 

[Baron Kurtz]

(It's Saturday moring and I'm feeling grumpy, so I thought I'd throw some Greek at you. )

D*mn you with your classical education

bk