Balmoral Boots

[Isshinryu101]

I don't think this is a matter of quality, at least not for me. It's a matter of design and style, a matter of eye candy or eye cancer.

surely not Cancer@! LOL! I do agree that from the side view the curve is nicer.

 

[Isshinryu101]

i spoke to a contact at Jeffery West and he thinks it might be down to a change in last types; the old lasts were in 3 pieces... the centre would have slipped out then the other two pieces would have room to slide out.
modern lasts are one piece and if the ankle was as tight as a vintage boot they wouldn't be able to get the last out of the boot, so they have to do a wider ankle.

Although many makers now use the 1 piece last, there are still some top makers that stick to the 3-piece. When your contact speaks of modern lasts as all being the same, he is mistaken. At his price point, (JW shoes), lasts are 1 piece.

These questions are fascinating and good info to find about. I will send some pics and pose the question to some bespoke shoemakers I know and see what they say.

 

[Rudie]

I would very much like to hear what these shoemakers say in regard to the ankle curve.

 

[Tomasso]

I think the looser fit may be a matter of asthetics as there are many bootmakers who still make some of their models with a more fitted ankle. Russells and White's come to mind.

 

[Barmey]

Really hoping to get a pair of boots made sometime soon.

Anyone seen this thread on the style forum?
http://www.styleforum.net/t/110988/my-balmoral-boots

Seems like a great idea. Get a pair of bespoke lasts made by somewhere like here http://www.springline.net/bespoke.htm

Get a pair of boots made by a craftsman like Clifford Roberts http://www.facebook.com/cliffrobertsshoemaker.northampton?ref=ts&fref=ts

results like this

Potentially a great pair of boots made for maybe £600.

Shame I'm still only a poor apprentice boy

 

[Graemsay]

Sebastian Tarek makes a nice pair of Balmoral boots, albeit in a less formal style.

They're bespoke, but about half the price of the usual suspects on the London shoemaking scene.

As for the vintage versus modern debate, Sebastian says that the difference in quality is mostly down to the leather. Historically, cows were grown much slower than they are today, and that resulted in a denser fibre structure in the skin. That allowed higher stitch counts to be used without tearing.

 

[cookie]

Sebastian Tarek makes a nice pair of Balmoral boots, albeit in a less formal style.

They're bespoke, but about half the price of the usual suspects on the London shoemaking scene.

As for the vintage versus modern debate, Sebastian says that the difference in quality is mostly down to the leather. Historically, cows were grown much slower than they are today, and that resulted in a denser fibre structure in the skin. That allowed higher stitch counts to be used without tearing.

He is a talented Aussie apparently. http://stylesalvage.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/sebastian-tarek-ss12.html

 

[cookie]

I would very much like to hear what these shoemakers say in regard to the ankle curve.

here is a good discussion of that issue
http://www.styleforum.net/t/187914/the-ultimate-hardcore-shoe-porn-thread-bespoke-only/1785

 

[herringbonekid]

i also contacted Justin FitzPatrick of the Shoe Snob blog to hear his take on the lack of rear ankle shape on modern balmorals. quote:

"I can't say that it's not something that is not done anymore. For example my boots have it as I know that Gaziano & Girling's do too, but it might simply be that it is not as exaggerated as much as it used to be. I don't think that makers choose not to do it because they don't like it but that things are different now. People are bigger than they used to be, calves included. And I also believe that many people don't like the feeling of things being "tight", of which narrowing the shaft of the boot makes things more tight....it could be a number of reasons really but it is still done, maybe just not as much...."



the part i've highlighted in bold is what i'd call understatement.

I think the looser fit may be a matter of asthetics as there are many bootmakers who still make some of their models with a more fitted ankle. Russells and White's come to mind

ironic though, that both of those boots are heavy outdoor boots, when the modern boots that really require the rear shape are the more dressy balmorals.
i think that what Justin says above ... "things are different now" is probably the closest reason yet. i.e. the change in style is basically arbitrary and simply down to trends, but because everyone now follows the new shape it would be too much work (and cost) to go back to a slimmer ankle, and after all, for a shoe company what's the incentive ?

 

[herringbonekid]

Alfred Sargent:

Justin Fitzpatrick:

Gaziano & Girling:

Edward Green:

Kanpekina:
(this looks identical to the boot below so i'm wondering if it's a different line, same brand)

Perfetto:

if anyone has more profile shots of modern RTW (or MTM but not full bespoke) balmorals please post, but dead on profile shots please, to compare the rear ankle shape.
i'd say Justin Fitzpatrick is currently in the lead as the boot with the most inward curved ankle.

 

[Rudie]

My cobbler (who is also a bespoke shoemaker) said it's mostly due to the fact that back then most everything was made by hand while now even so-called handmade shoes are mostly machine made with the cobbler holding the shoe in his hands while the machine does all the work. She said it is difficult to get the correct angle needed to work at the heel with a machine when there is that pronounced heel curve. If it was still done by hand by most manufacturers there would be a higher probability of this shape being used more. I am not sure if this argument is valid, though, seeing that Red Wing or Whites still use this shape. And their shoes are mostly if not completely machine made, no doubt.

hbk, to me the shoes you posted look utterly wrong.

 

[herringbonekid]

hbk, to me the shoes you posted look utterly wrong.

they all have their individual merits, but personally i think they would all be improved by a nip and tuck at the rear (and i know you think so too).
i'll be adding more examples as i find them.

 

[herringbonekid]

I am not sure if this argument is valid, though, seeing that Red Wing or Whites still use this shape. And their shoes are mostly if not completely machine made, no doubt.

the uppers on vintage boots would also be stitched by machine, so her argument doesn't really add up.
effectively the uppers are stitched together first (and look very shapeless) then placed, and nailed around the last which gives them the shape.

 

[Rudie]

She said it has something to do how the heel is attached by hand as opposed to machine. Something about the stitch angle that is possible with the machine or rather not possible.

 

[Qirrel]

Stacy Adams. It has a nice shape, shame about the poor quality.

 

[herringbonekid]

that IS a good ankle shape.

 

[Tomasso]

Stacy Adams. It has a nice shape, shame about the poor quality.

I find Stacy Adams to be such a tease.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Stacy Adams. It has a nice shape, shame about the poor quality.

Visually this example of Stacy Adams is very sharp. As you made mention the quality is just not there...at least on anything they are currently making. Some of their real vintage shoes/boots however are fairly well made.

I have often thought (just looking at this example here) if Stacy Adams would make things with higher quality of real leather and paying more attention to their work, they would be a far more attractive selection than many other modern shoe manufacturers and I personally think their sales would increase.

For sure if this example of Stacy Adams was made with all leather construction, I would rapidly desire to make a purchase or two without hesitation. They just use too much glue and plastic "faux" leather for me to consider them worth any price at all. They'd make an excellent "practice target" for those of us that own shotguns! lol!

 

[LoveMyHats2]

She said it has something to do how the heel is attached by hand as opposed to machine. Something about the stitch angle that is possible with the machine or rather not possible.

Next time I see my cobbler I will ask him his two cents on this same issue. I have asked him many questions about the way shoes are made, step by step. He would be making shoes now if he had the last to do so, and many years ago just south of where I live, there was a shoe making facility in the city of Cold Water, Mi. They would have contracts to make many high end shoes, and a few individuals working there did most of the "hand made" orders they would get in. My cobblers Father was one of those individuals and is also where my cobbler first worked as a teenager. He stated they would get orders from Alden, Stafford, Allen Edmond, Sears, J.C. Penny shoes. The leather would arrive in large lots, patterns and design specifications which would even include the quality of thread and adhesives that would have to be used for each run of shoes that were made. Heels, insoles, eyelet metals,nails, etc. would all be sourced for them by whom ever placed the orders.

Not to honk my own horn, but one of my goals is to take courses on making shoes, purchasing all the tools needed and finding sources for exotic leather. Part of this process will be to make my own last eventually. As I am now "semi retired" and as much as I have wanted to own shoes or boots that no one is making now, what do I have to lose?

 

[Rudie]

My cobbler told me that the quality of leather has declined in such a way that she can only buy one of fifty hides to make bespoke shoes from. And of this one hide only a small portion can be used. She said it is very difficult for an independent tailor to source good leather, as most of the leather that still maintains a high quality is sold in bulk to Gucci and similar companies. The sellers are not interested in dealing with individuals who buy only small quantities. But most leather today is quite inferior to vintage leather.