Bad experience with Aero Leather

[frussell]

I posted my long unpleasant experience on the Aero/Horween joint statement thread, so I won't re-post it, but I will say that I'd only do another Aero if I went through Insurrection. Internet, yards of emails, phone call with Ken, still ended up with a jacket I'm not completely happy with, fit-wise. I've chalked it up to an expensive learning curve. Frank.

 

[schitzo]

Schitz, I don't think of myself as promoting anything other than what I have in my possession or what I personally like. As far as I can determine, you have also done the same, although your collection of jackets far exceeds mine. Furthermore, your posts that include pictures and description of fit of your various jackets is far better than mine, and you have contributed greatly to the overall knowledge base for many of us on the FL. You are correct in saying that a personal visit to a specific company is extremely worthwhile in order to nail down preferences, particularly regarding sizing.

Fanch, you're a gentleman. For clarity's sake the promotional activities I was referring to don't involve you.

 

[Capesofwrath]

As I said earlier, I would like to see pictures and comments by Rippsnorter of his jackets. I would encourage anyone who is critical of whatever has been received from any company considered to be substandard to educate us by showing us pictures and description of the product. Sometimes what we perceive as wrong is open to question. I think that Mark Twain is the one who said "it ain't what we don't know that gets us in trouble but what we do know that just ain't so!'

I really don't think it would be a good idea to start posting pictures of bad workmanship online like that. I take pictures of problems but deal with the maker and hope to get it sorted there. I did have a weird communication with Aero a few months ago which I mentioned elsewhere, where I sent a picture of a problem and he flat out refused to acknowledge that it was one. It sort of brought the phone call to a dead end since it was then a case of, "well I can see it's not right," and "yes it is." So the only option then was to agree to disagree while I insisted that I didn't want that jacket back whatever he thought of it. But that picture was between me and them and although the issue is long resolved I wouldn't want to post it up.

I wouldn't want to post up pictures of problem jackets at all but only the ones I'm happy with. Although plenty of people do seem to post pictures before asking the maker what he thinks, and if I was a jacket maker I don't think I would like that. Fit issues are different perhaps, assuming the buyer wants opinions. But even then I think he should get in touch with the seller first.

There seemed to be some demand on these pages for a general leather jacket manufacturers review thread so I started one a bit back. But the mods decided that they didn't want to allow a thread to "defame manufacturers reputations" so it didn't get past a few hours... Which was a bit odd since I thought it might be a review thread with good and bad experiences in one place. As it is we have the usual threads praising Aero, and this one inviting stories of bad experiences. All a bit unbalanced I think.

 

[Highwaymanman]

I really don't think it would be a good idea to start posting pictures of bad workmanship online like that. I take pictures of problems but deal with the maker and hope to get it sorted there. I did have a weird communication with Aero a few months ago which I mentioned elsewhere, where I sent a picture of a problem and he flat out refused to acknowledge that it was one. It sort of brought the phone call to a dead end since it was then a case of, "well I can see it's not right," and "yes it is." So the only option then was to agree to disagree while I insisted that I didn't want that jacket back whatever he thought of it. But that picture was between me and them and although the issue is long resolved I wouldn't want to post it up.

I wouldn't want to post up pictures of problem jackets at all but only the ones I'm happy with. Although plenty of people do seem to post pictures before asking the maker what he thinks, and if I was a jacket maker I don't think I would like that. Fit issues are different perhaps, assuming the buyer wants opinions. But even then I think he should get in touch with the seller first.

There seemed to be some demand on these pages for a general leather jacket manufacturers review thread so I started one a bit back. But the mods decided that they didn't want to allow a thread to "defame manufacturers reputations" so it didn't get past a few hours... Which was a bit odd since I thought it might be a review thread with good and bad experiences in one place. As it is we have the usual threads praising Aero, and this one inviting stories of bad experiences. All a bit unbalanced I think.

I agree with the idea that as grown adults we should try and be mature in our dealings with companies e.g. go to them first with any problems rather than throwing the door open wide to the public from the off. However, if you've undertaken a transaction you have the right to make your opinion public. In my opinion companies should not fear their dealings with customers being made public. Of course disgruntled and bitter people may come with a grudge and post maliciously but that is fairly easy to identify and in any case, companies can respond in any way they see fit. They can engage on the forum as Thurston bros and BK do, they can reach out privately or they can totally ignore. They don't even have to care about what people say about them on the web if they don't want to.

FL is under no obligation to uphold free speech of course, but I think that it must be plain that one of the things that makes this forum fantastic is it's independance. I hate to say this but the Thurston bros thread is one of the least interesting threads to me, since it functions essentially as a shop window. I don't mean that as an insult by any means and the thread is great for jacket porn. But it doesn't offer the same range of opinions and dynamic discussions that regularly occur elsewhere.

When a person posts a picture of a jacket they get unvarnished opinions on everything they could possibly ask about and more besides. That can be rough but it's ultimately a good thing. The format is well established and one knows not to take it personally. Expressing opinions on the relative qualities of jackets and their makers is an essential component of any such dicussion.

The loss of those would be a far greater injury than for example, the generally civil and friendly tone which the mods worry about so much. A forum can function efficiently while under an atmosphere of utter venom.... just look at the rest of the web! Not ideal of course, but I think this place strikes a very neat balance and I would hate to see it changed simply to protect commercial interests.

 

[Capesofwrath]

I think you misunderstand me. I'm all in favour of honest opinions being posted, good and bad, and I've also posted some. But personally I wouldn't want to start a shame page where I posted up a picture of bad workmanship for all to see. Not if the issue had been dealt with certainly. If I couldn't get satisfaction from them perhaps.

As I see it posting pictures of poor work is different to commenting on it. Or to posting pictures of jackets you've bought and may have a fit issue with for general comment. Or even to problems with leather fading or some such issue. But even in those cases it would be better to go back to the maker first. Then you can also include how they dealt with your problem, and that might put them in a better light. Or not.

 

[rippsnorter]

As it is we have the usual threads praising Aero, and this one inviting stories of bad experiences. All a bit unbalanced I think.

You've misunderstood my purpose with this thread. I'm not inviting everyone to post their bad experiences. I titled it bad experience (singular) and just wanted to share my experience.

I also agree that people should try to come to an agreement with the manufacturer first, before discussing it elsewhere. After that, a review, good or bad, is helpful.

 

[Capesofwrath]

You've misunderstood my purpose with this thread. I'm not inviting everyone to post their bad experiences. I titled it bad experience (singular) and just wanted to share my experience.

I also agree that people should try to come to an agreement with the manufacturer first, before discussing it elsewhere. After that, a review, good or bad, is helpful.

Yes rippsnorter you're right. Your OP is about your experience with Aero. But inevitably a thread like this will invite other bad experience too. Just like the thread: Aero customer service -can't be beat, invites people to share their good experiences.

It's all a bit polarised really.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Perhaps we should have a "mediocre, neither good nor bad, experiences" thread, too?

I'm not being serious. I mean, this stuff has to be polarised to some extent, doesn't it? As we've talked about above, the flood of fanboy/whatever comments will tend to drown out any negatives, at least on this forum (tbh I do believe we have several shills - and definitely some sock puppets - posting to FLounge for various companies, and this is one reason I don't tend to post in these threads, or in the outerwear section at all, very much). Reviews have to be for the prospective customer. A customer considering buying an Aero (or whichever other company) will come here through Google searching. They're hardly likely to read through hundreds of pages of a general experiences thread and sift out the good and bad comments. Dedicated good review and bad review threads in that regard can be useful.

Personally, i don't bother reading good reviews. By the time I'm actually considering a purchase, I've done most of my own research and only want to hear the negatives some people have experienced, in order to expect and if possible head off any problems. The reason I don't have a Lost Worlds jacket, for example, is the consistently negative experiences suggested by people not only on this forum bu many others as well. In a general thread I fear that those negatives would get lost. I'm one of those people who would not go through hundreds of pages to determine a consensus.

 

[Highwaymanman]

I think you misunderstand me. I'm all in favour of honest opinions being posted, good and bad, and I've also posted some. But personally I wouldn't want to start a shame page where I posted up a picture of bad workmanship for all to see. Not if the issue had been dealt with certainly. If I couldn't get satisfaction from them perhaps.

This already happens, often when someone is proud to show off their new aquisition but sometimes when a person has some anxiety about fit. Why shouldn't that extend to issues of quality or service? And that being the case, what is the difference between a dedicated thread and the current case by case basis?

I'm not all that interested in such a thread but I'm not offended by it either.

 

[Smithy]

Perhaps we should have a "mediocre, neither good nor bad, experiences" thread, too?

I'm not being serious. I mean, this stuff has to be polarised to some extent, doesn't it? As we've talked about above, the flood of fanboy/whatever comments will tend to drown out any negatives, at least on this forum (tbh I do believe we have several shills - and definitely some sock puppets - posting to FLounge for various companies, and this is one reason I don't tend to post in these threads, or in the outerwear section at all, very much). Reviews have to be for the prospective customer. A customer considering buying an Aero (or whichever other company) will come here through Google searching. They're hardly likely to read through hundreds of pages of a general experiences thread and sift out the good and bad comments. Dedicated good review and bad review threads in that regard can be useful.

Personally, i don't bother reading good reviews. By the time I'm actually considering a purchase, I've done most of my own research and only want to hear the negatives some people have experienced, in order to expect and if possible head off any problems. The reason I don't have a Lost Worlds jacket, for example, is the consistently negative experiences suggested by people not only on this forum bu many others as well. In a general thread I fear that those negatives would get lost. I'm one of those people who would not go through hundreds of pages to determine a consensus.

Couldn't agree more with you BK. No one researching buying a jacket could be bothered trawling through hundreds of pages, I know I don't have neither the time nor inclination to. Good and bad review threads give a far clearer picture.

And I have to agree with you about the shills/sock puppets assessment. There seem to be a dogged few constantly trying to stuff their preferences down other members throats and demean other makers/members who happen to discuss/buy from other makers. It's certainly gotten far worse from when I joined but it's good to know that Paddy and Feraud have had a gutsful of this sort of thing as well and are on the case.

Really though, I don't understand why anyone would get upset about seeing a bad review (unless I suppose you were the maker or someone affiliated with/working for them). No maker is perfect. What really matters is the frequency of problems from a maker and types of problems that arise from them, that's what can be useful to potential buyers.

 

[Otter]

Sock puppertry can easily be cured. All you have to do is require users to re-register using an isp supplied email, no one off gmail, hotmail or other accounts. I have seen this done on other boards to weed out the dead and inactive accounts and those who like to talk to themselves.
On an unrelated topic, if you want to see what a self regulating forum looks like : http://theunoriginaldistroublemakersclub.yuku.com/forums/3
Viewer caution advised, strong language may be used.

 

[Smithy]

Sock puppertry can easily be cured. All you have to do is require users to re-register using an isp supplied email, no one off gmail, hotmail or other accounts

Problem with that is most people, have an isp supplied email for their home computers. Doesn't stop people who might be in the employ of a business from posting using their home email address. I've heard it mentioned here and on other forums that some "members" on forums post positive comments for a particular maker of whatever (stereos, cars, clothing, etc) and receive a "kickback" or discount on the maker's product for doing so.

Whether that is happening here, who knows? But I suppose stranger things have happened.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

It most certainly is. Advance access to/sale of prototypes etc.

 

[Smithy]

It most certainly is. Advance access to/sale of prototypes etc.

Well if that is the case BK, I certainly wouldn't be entirely surprised.

 

[Peacoat]

Sock puppertry can easily be cured. All you have to do is require users to re-register using an isp supplied email, no one off gmail, hotmail or other accounts. I have seen this done on other boards to weed out the dead and inactive accounts and those who like to talk to themselves.

No need for that type of action. The Bartenders can all see our IP addresses; that is a function reserved to moderators. Simple to tell who amongst us are the sock puppets. So, if those of you with several different accounts think you are putting one over on the Bartenders, you aren't.

As Smithy said, an office account would have a different IP address which would allow for two separate accounts. But that would apply even if everyone were required to re-register; one could still have a separate account accessible from the office with a different IP address.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Or if someone's using Tor or some other kind of IP scrambling system. (Admittedly this would a rather extreme course of action for a leather jacket discussion!)

 

[Otter]

Or if someone's using Tor or some other kind of IP scrambling system. (Admittedly this would a rather extreme course of action for a leather jacket discussion!)

That does rather assume that someone is actually doing that!
Mobile devices will generate a different ip address. I know quite a few people who use IP tunneling software so they can play online games on servers that are country or region specific and otherwise inaccessible to EU based persons.

 

[tonypaj]

Given that I know nothing about IP tunnelling or such like, I'd have a couple of things to say about the real topic of the discussion . Aero have always dealt with me promptly and properly, the old and the new management. I did get a bit annoyed lately at being quoted GBP 150 limit for a trade in. I dislike selling on ebay and likes, and a limit like this simply stops me from buying from Aero. I already have 5 of their jackets, any new purchases would be upgrades, a whim, some such, preferably with a trade in. With the limit I prefer to do nothing.

 

[Highwaymanman]

You never know. Another forum I frequent was just rocked by the revelation of a four year, highly involved identity scam. It was quite unpleasant and upset me more than I'd want to admit the internet being capable of.

 

[ProteinNerd]

You never know. Another forum I frequent was just rocked by the revelation of a four year, highly involved identity scam. It was quite unpleasant and upset me more than I'd want to admit the internet being capable of.

Rule #1 of the internet.
Never underestimate the lengths people will go to on the internet. It seems to bring out the absolute worst anti social behaviour in way too many people simply because they think they are "anonymous".

It speaks volumes about their character.