Bad experience with Aero Leather

[Girl on a Motorcycle]

I look forward to reading a thread devoted to "Problems with Bill Kelso", or does their affiliate status with this forum protect them here?

 

[Otter]

Why not?

The other thread has been closed so betron I'll reply to you here. I think you did call him a troll, and I think you called me one too. So if you or anyone else has a gripe with me do it in an open way and don't weasel around.

I kept out of that thread until some contrary views turned up in the love in but I don't see why we all can't write honestly about our experiences. Or should the thread only allow good reviews of Aero? I've written about them elsewhere, but I call things as I see them and if I have a poor experience I'll write about that too. It's also interesting that some people who object are the same people who jump into AL and other threads and slag those companies off when they have no experience of them at all. But hypocrisy is to be expected I suppose.

Other threads have been locked down way before this for the poster re-opening closed topics to continue the "debate".

 

[wdw]

I don't mind seeing a complaints thread as long as the manufacturer gets a fair and frank right to reply.

I gather some customers can be demanding, to say the least, and that there are two sides to every story.

Having said that, rippsnorter seems to fall under the two-regime cock-up camp rather than him being an anal stitch-counter.

 

[Sloan1874]

I don't like this as well. If we come back to the Amazon review-system, this would be like gathering all negative comments about all products Amazon in one place while the praise can be seen at each product individual. Not fair.
Sloan, I don't see why you are demanding for the mods to close this thread? You and some others have been the source of quite some glowing reviews about Aero, supporting and amplifying each other, congratulating each who depicted a freshly bought jacket on the terrific fit, be it true or not, so why not one thread with not so good experiences? You guys were slamming AL for example whereever possible, but Aero must stay out of critizism? Is the company holy or what? I thought you were a journalist? Freedom of speech anybody?
I agree a "bad experience"-thread might attract trolls, so a more vigilant moderation could be necessary, but civilized people should be able to discuss this in a polite and educated manner, without trolling.

Make it a free-for-all, then. Everyone should be allowed to pile on. But we know the sort of fight that will cause and the tensions that exist here already and are going to get worse from next Monday onwards. And on the "I thought you were a journalist" point. Yes, I am, and I know all about balance, right to reply and, even if they don't apply here, the libel laws - I've seen at least one actionable post on the other thread which the mods for whatever reason haven't removed.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

This is something I know the bartenders are trying very hard to avoid. I'm pretty sure this thread will be allowed to stay open, so long as folks can avoid accusing each other of schilling or trolling. Also avoiding any ongoing litigation might be worthwhile. Hold off for just a few short weeks on that one, friends!

If the FL is going to fall into the murky waters of only allowing positive threads on affiliates it becomes nothing more than advertising in disguise. Is that why we come here?

 

[Capesofwrath]

Other threads have been locked down way before this for the poster re-opening closed topics to continue the "debate".

Sometimes threads are closed too soon on sites like this one in a rather Panglossian attempt to try to pretend that disagreements don't happen. As someone above wrote we are all adults and as long as we don't slip into vulgar abuse why shouldn't we be able to discuss issues openly?

In this case I responded to a poster who had called me and another poster a troll because he didn't agree with us. His comment stays but you think I am not supposed to respond?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I personally would like to see a "general complaints about leather jacket manufacturers" thread.

I suspect that all manufacturers will occasionally drop the ball in the same ways. The problem for these companies is that they allow modifications. This is a big mistake, IMO, for a customer who you cannot see and will never meet to check proper fit. Other than a very basic shortening of sleeves etc., the product should be the product; the customer is not part of the creative process (for all their pretension otherwise), and should not be. It is the mistake of the companies, IMO, to pander to the customer's ego and convince them otherwise. Only problems can result.

 

[Capesofwrath]

Make it a free-for-all, then. Everyone should be allowed to pile on. But we know the sort of fight that will cause and the tensions that exist here already and are going to get worse from next Monday onwards.

Freedom of speech is a free for all unless someone is maliciously shouting fire in a crowded cinema or gratuitously abusing someone.

The best way of dealing with issues is to be tolerant of opposing views and address them not the person writing them; and not to try to close down a discussion because you don't like it.

 

[Two Types]

Criticism is an essential part of the process by which we learn about products. What one person sees as a minor flaw may be a major flaw in someone else's opinion.
By publishing balanced reviews you can enhance the decision making process. I appreciate reading reviews on Amazon, and that's when i'm spending £8 on a book. So it's even more important when you are going to spend £1000 on a leather jacket.

I know that criticism can hurt those who face it, especially when it is unfair. As a writer, I have experienced this on Amazon when my books have been slagged off by readers. But that's just what happens sometimes. Just because some people don't like my books, why would I want to censor their views. If they are factually wrong, I simply comment on this. In one case a reviewer claimed I had neglected an entire historical event, so I responded with the page numbers to show that the reviewer was wrong. Yet I would never want fair criticism to be prevented, however much it might hurt.

 

[Capesofwrath]

I look forward to reading a thread devoted to "Problems with Bill Kelso", or does their affiliate status with this forum protect them here?

Actually to be fair there is at least one member here who does have a problem with Bill Kelso and posted complaints on their thread. Andy there responded politely even when other people who were not customers joined in and started to trash it.

 

[Capesofwrath]

The problem for these companies is that they allow modifications. This is a big mistake, IMO, for a customer who you cannot see and will never meet to check proper fit. Other than a very basic shortening of sleeves etc., the product should be the product; the customer is not part of the creative process (for all their pretension otherwise), and should not be. It is the mistake of the companies, IMO, to pander to the customer's ego and convince them otherwise. Only problems can result.

I don't agree with you there Baron. Big companies make what they make and take it or leave it. But smaller semi bespoke companies trade on the ability to make some changes to their designs.

Obviously it depends on whether the changes make the jacket just a bit different to the design or a complete disaster. But if it's the latter they can just say no if you really want that you'll have to go elsewhere; and if they do still want your custom but don't like what they're being asked to do to not put their label in it.

 

[thor]

And there have been numerous negative comments in various threads concerning LW so "all's fair in love and war" I suppose.

 

[l0fielectronic]

It good to hear the good and the bad, to help people have realistic expectations of a company though its always a shame when there are issues which aren't dealt with via private communication. I can see why the OP felt the need to start this thread having read some of the replies to him in the other thread which seemed somewhat rude to me.

 

[schitzo]

up to now I would say this thread is a credit to the Fedora Lounge. Objective and intelligent members have chipped in with some very good common sense and some fair and reasoned logic. This time the conversation is not predictable so why would any one want to shut it down?

 

[Smithy]

TBH I don't have a problem with threads started expressing a negative experience of a maker. Plenty of threads are started here expressing positive experiences and the contrary ones add to them to give a fuller, more realistic picture of a maker and what to possibly expect. No maker is perfect and mistakes, cock-ups are made. And don't forget that many, many threads have already been started here expressing a negative buying experience of plenty of makers. Aero are not, nor should they be, a sacred cow anymore than any other maker.

One thing which I don't like is how the Outerwear section has become increasingly bipartisan over the last year or two, sadly it seems in relation to some Aero fans who have attacked other makers and especially those members who have supported other makers - nearly always without any experience of dealing with the makers they so vehemently attack. The recent thread in which a new member (FredS) was belittled and insulted (which ended up having to be censured) was a real low point in the 7 years I've been a member here and typified how nasty things have gotten around here. Although I know Paddy is on the warpath now in relation to such behaviour so I doubt that anyone engaging in similar rudeness will last too long here as a member.

Really though, if you buy a jacket and you have a good experience and are happy, post it. Conversely if you aren't happy and have been treated unsatisfactorily post it as well. It all adds to the body of knowledge which the Outerwear section was (I imagine) started to create.

 

[schitzo]

TBH I don't have a problem with threads started expressing a negative experience of a maker. Plenty of threads are started here expressing positive experiences and the contrary ones add to them to give a fuller, more realistic picture of a maker and what to possibly expect. No maker is perfect and mistakes, cock-ups are made. And don't forget that many, many threads have already been started here expressing a negative buying experience of plenty of makers. Aero are not, nor should they be, a sacred cow anymore than any other maker.

One thing which I don't like is how the Outerwear section has become increasingly bipartisan over the last year or two, sadly it seems in relation to some Aero fans who have attacked other makers and especially those members who have supported other makers - nearly always without any experience of dealing with the makers they so vehemently attack. The recent thread in which a new member (FredS) was belittled and insulted (which ended up having to be censured) was a real low point in the 7 years I've been a member here and typified how nasty things have gotten around here. Although I know Paddy is on the warpath now in relation to such behaviour so I doubt that anyone engaging in similar rudeness will last too long here as a member.

Really though, if you buy a jacket and you have a good experience and are happy, post it. Conversely if you aren't happy and have been treated unsatisfactorily post it as well. It all adds to the body of knowledge which the Outerwear section was (I imagine) started to create.

Hear hear!!

 

[scrawlysteve]

I don't agree with you there Baron. Big companies make what they make and take it or leave it. But smaller semi bespoke companies trade on the ability to make some changes to their designs.

Obviously it depends on whether the changes make the jacket just a bit different to the design or a complete disaster. But if it's the latter they can just say no if you really want that you'll have to go elsewhere; and if they do still want your custom but don't like what they're being asked to do to not put their label in it.

Couldn't agree more--a few of us recently have had adjustments made to a basic design and been totally happy with the result (in my case I had enough zippered jackets and therefore had a zippered design made with buttons instead)---this hardly seems pretentious nor "pandering to my ego"--so a bald statement that " only problems can result " is illogical, Baron.
Besides which the OP's problems didn't actually arise from demands for design modifications ..... and are with Aero which these days doesn't do much of that anyway.....

 

[Worf]

Interesting thread. I've some "beef" with a "second tier" jacket maker and the list is pretty long. I'd love a chance to let my dissatisfaction be known, but I prefer to be ASKED first. I won't start a complaint thread but if the community is ever asked about their experience with said maker... then and only then will I speak my piece. And even then I might not do it. I was born and raised in a place where if you flapped your gums about someone (deserved or not) you had to assume the insult would get back to them and that you'd have to defend (either with words or fists) your actions. The internet is not so cut and dried, some revel in the ability to act like an ass with little to no consequences. I wasn't raised that way.

Worf

 

[Highwaymanman]

two-regime cock-up camp

I saw this film twice when it first came out.

To be serious I say let this thread take it's course. If Aero are as good as folks maintain then they can take it and I say that as a long time Aero fan.

 

[Stand By]

And there have been numerous negative comments in various threads concerning LW so "all's fair in love and war" I suppose.

Great point, Thor - and one I was about to make as I worked my way through this thread after being away from my PC for a few weeks ...
Coming from Yorkshire, I'm a plain-speaking person - and I take people as I find them. Note: as I find them. Not others.
I started work in my industry originally working for a guy who had a terrible reputation for being a bully and a tyrant, and whenever I said where I was apprenticing, people would say "Christ almighty mate, you work for HIM?!" But you know, my then-boss was always alright with me - don't know why, but he was. So I can only ever acknowledge that yes he had a bad reputation, but I can't ever say anything bad about him myself 'cos he was always pleasant with me and he never did me any harm or wrong - and I make sure I say so. That's only fair in my mind.

This site was a great source of information to me when I first developed an interest in jackets, and LW picqued my interest at first - the website was "interesting" with its tirade on the ills of modern fashion and masculinity (which I agree with) - and on here were some of the poor reviews in regards to customer service that gave me pause when I was looking to select a company to buy a good A2 from - enough to make me listen to Gary when he assured me that ELC could match or exceed LW jackets. So it was a demonstration of Buyer-Beware.

But (many thousands of pounds and jackets later) today, IF I ever wanted a tough and authentic-looking A2 (and their B-3 looks great to me as well) I would still order from LW - if THAT is the product I want, then that is WHERE I send my cash - because although many people here aren't fans, many are - and LW hasn't done ME any harm, so I wouldn't knock LW in any thread on them until I have first-hand experience of them. I won't even speak up (and I only ever make a point of saying something positive - or at least constructive).
Aero served me well under Amanda and Will - and I can't ever do anything but support them (as individuals) as they earned my total trust and praise. Clearly something made a lot of the staff leave Aero en masse - what I don't know and it doesn't matter to me as that was their experience - not mine - it never affected me.
So if Aero (under the Calders) had a jacket I wanted, like LW, I would order from them. But at least I would know from others here how sometimes a ball can be dropped or fumbled and what to expect so I can try to handle MY experience with them better.

So, respectfully Sloan, this thread deserves to remain open in my opinion.