Aviation Leathercraft Irvin

[Deacon211]

OK, folks. You love 'em. You hate 'em. But how ARE they?

After getting my Eastman, I decided that my wife would love a nice sheepskin jacket. Generally speaking, she doesn't give a wet slap about authenticity, and would freak if I told her how much I was going to spend anyway, so the top end makers are probably a little overkill for her.

I had originally broken the ice by telling her (honestly) that I was going to get her a WPG jacket. But, after reading about the zipper issues (the pleather issue seems to be largely addressed I gather) I thought perhaps of moving a step up to ALC. The jacket looks warm, well made, and luxurious.

So, realism aside, does anyone have any experience with the brand. Is there another brand for that $800 range that you would choose first?

Thanks for the input!

Deacon


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Stand By]

I bought one waaay back in 1987 (for about 245 GBP - an entire month's wage as a humble second-year apprentice!) and it went all over the world and UK with me. Slept in it I don't know how many times and it shrugged off more weather than I can think of. I adored it - but then, I'd never seen an ELC or Aero one, so I didn't know better as that was ye olde days of pre-internet reserch ... But ignorance was bliss. I just loved it.
It was supremely warm (its only disadvantage is that one can be a tad too warm - say, going from the freezing outdoors and then into malls or a pub, then you can cook in them, so a T shirt is often enough underneath - and then it feels like the next best thing to still being in bed!) and the wool packed down and the leather took on a gorgeous patina over the 18 years that I wore it - due to lots of TLC in the form of Connolly Hide Food ... and in the end, I sold it on eBay as it grew too small on my chest - and then I decided on getting another and an upgrade, and in that (internet!) research, I discovered ELC - and my 1940 Patt. showed up and I was immediately struck by how light it was compared to the A' Leathercraft and I wasn't used to that ... but that's how they were originally. The AL version is very over-engineered in terms of tog value - they're made in a way without wartime constraints and, being thicker, aren't tailored quite as nicely.

My brother loved mine so much that he bought one for himself a year later - and he still has his and he loves it. I showed him my ELC and he loved it too - but wasn't interested in upgrading his as he feels that it serves him well and he doesn't care about the extra authenticity (for what that would cost him) - his, he feels, looks the part and that's enough for him. Also, something went awry with his jacket (stitching, I believe) and he gave them a call about it - saying that he'd bought his jacket from them 15 years previously and the stitching was coming loose in a small area. So they told him to mail it to them and he did - and they fixed it FOR FREE - and THEY covered the return postage. Now, THAT is service - ONE purchase and that's the level of customer service ?! That's amazing. I've bought a lot of jackets and spent a lot of money at ELC and when my ELC B-3 collar tore through, I was given a quote - that I refused ... and my bro' got his fixed for free and he hadn't spent 5K Pounds with them over the years ....

As for my old jacket, as I said, it cost me 245 Pounds (and my mates thought I was crazy to lash out that sort of lettuce at the time). But as I said, it served me well for 18 years and was still going strong.
Now, consider that 245 (Pounds) divided by 18 (years) = 15 Pounds -per annum ! Not a month - a year ! The price of a DVD. Now for what it did for me, that's astonishing value for money, no matter which way you slice it.
And then I sold it on eBay for 125 Pounds to a fella in Amsterdam who apparently collected jackets for the film industry ... so I got half my money back again ! So it really owed me nothing in the end and kept me warm on many a cold night.

Would I buy another ? Not now - I love my ELC 1942 Patt. and an Aces High jacket would be the optimal choice of course, but that's cost-prohibitive (and my girlfriend would stick me with the frickin' bread knife!) and I would look at Alexander Leathers or Aero for another too, if ever I needed another.
But they're built to last and look the part (if details don't matter) and age well - and as I always used to say about it - it's not a matter of how long it'll last - it's who you'll leave it to !
Hope that helps ...

 

[John Lever]

They aren't that cheap really compared to WPG so its better to go for a used Eastman or Aero. The cut and pattern on the ALC is not that good.The collar strap is even the wrong way round, and the arm shape is hopeless. I bought one 35 years ago and it never broke in, it was uncomfortable to wear and too bulky. Only after I bought an original and an Eastman did I realise what I had been missing.

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks John.

The issue is that I wouldn't think my wife would be particularly interested in a used jacket. If the cut wasn't accurate, that would be one thing, but it sounds like the cut just isn't good from a general aesthetic standpoint.

The jacket looks good on the female model and the fleece looks nice. The price is sort of middling compared to the $1000 and up models.

Would he general consensus then be that a WPG is the preferable option, knowing that a zipper replacement was in the offing in the future?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Edward]

Depends what you want, really. The ALCs aren't much like a "real" Irvin (the only particularly accurate thing they have is the label!), but they do seem to have a lot of very happy customers in the Morgan-driving fraternity. If your wife doesn't care for accuracy to the originals, they might be an option - so too Cirrus. Both I believe do at least one model cut specifically for women, which your wife might prefer. That said, as has already been noted, neither is a cheap option by comparison to the accurate repro options, so it really is a style alternative rather than a cheaper one. You can save serious money on them used (at least when I last scoured eBay there didn't seem to be much of a used value to them, unlike, say, ELC), but if it's for a big present for the wife you might not fancy that.

Another option I might consider, if you think it fits the bill stylistically, albeit it a somewhat different beast, is the ELC USAAF B17.... I think it looks great, though depending on your wife's aesthetic tastes, it might not be for her. Lovely jacket, though, and cut for a lady...

 

[Stand By]

I agree. A lightly used ELC or similar would be a better option as you can layer better according to the variances in temperature and what you'll be doing (i.e. indoors/outdoors).
But it's like everything else - if a waiter tried to sell you a $130 bottle of wine and waxed lyrically about the notes of flavours and the lingering after-tastes and the history of the vineyard - but you didn't like it that much and couldn't see what the fuss was about - but you did love that $15 bottle of Pinot Grigio that you had at your friend's last week ... well, who's to say which is better at the end of the day ? It's horses for courses ...

Me? I wouldn't have another - and neither would they pass muster around here as most people around here appreciate the finer things about jackets and fabrics and leather and details and zips and the all-important label spec. - and historical accuracy - things like that all matter. And that's why we hang out here ...
My girlfriend sees NONE of that - nothing at all - she thinks all my jackets look the same (she means my B-6/Irvin/B-3) and she can't understand the appeal these things have for me r for anyone else and she can't believe there's a forum for such people to discuss these things ... I bought her an ELC RW B-15 and she says it's a beautiful jacket and she loves the look - but when it's cold, she says it's too short on the body, so she reaches for a longer coat to keep her warm - hence, she's barely worn it. So there you go.[huh]

 

[John Lever]

One of the Navy sheepskins might be more practical,they are longer and have pockets. At least one U.S. company makes them.

 

[Deacon211]

Is that US Authentic?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[avique]

Cockpit USA makes a B3 fitted specifically for women. Not historically accurate in least but my wife lives in hers during the winter. It seems to be well made and I think they currently run around $800. Might be worth a look.

 

[Deacon211]

WPG $350...zipper issues? Durability?
US Authentic $845...no female options
ALC $911...female cut
Aero $1143 at the cheapest
Eastman $1300
Aces High $1400

Here's the price breakdown. Obviously, the WPG is by far the cheapest option. My only concern with it being quality. I've heard of general zipper issues, but otherwise the quality seems adequate.

Between that and the plus $1000 jackets are USA and Aero. I had a bit of an issue with USA though it looks like a nice jacket. The ALC looks equally nice, plus it looks like they have a ladies cut.

I actually looked at the Cockpit B-3 but, for an $800 jacket it looks substantially thinner than the ALC and USA offerings.

I understand that a used high end coat might be the best value, but it's just not something that I'd buy for my wife...for me it'd be fine.

As I wrote initially, I understand that ALC loses big points for it's lacking accuracy but, since that doesn't matter to my wife a bit, I was generally asking about quality, materials, and fit.

Deacon


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Deacon211]

Reading some of the other replies, I personally do like the Navy offerings, but I think the Irvin is particularly generous which I think the wife liked. Thickness won't be too much of an issue...she's constantly cold.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Stand By]

Totally understand the second-hand aspect of a jacket not being an option; a lady's prerogative. Mine would say exactly the same.

In all my years, I never had a single problem with the zip or any aspect of the materials or hardware. I'd take the occasional spill (off the bike) and it would shrug them off ... it's a good, strong jacket.
The fit, as Mr. Lever points out, was bulky but that's due to the generous use of material. As I said, you can tailor a thinner jacket better, so the arms can hang down and the elbows closer to the belt as a result - so on an Aviation Leathercraft Irvin, they produce a fit whereby the arms and elbows are slightly out a little more - which the bulk of material produces. And someone like my brother would say he doesn't care a jot about that when the wind's coming in off the Yorkshire moors.

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks Stand by. I actually missed your initial reply which was very helpful.

I had forgotten about Alexander Leathers. They have some nice gear.

So, just to be clear, you are speaking of ALC when you are talking about having no issues right? It was WPG that I was concerned about the zipper quality.

Truly, I'm easing my wife into the leather jacket thing. I got her a US Wings A-2 just because it was $200 and, if she hated it, it would be no big loss. Turns out she wears it often and it looks great on her.

So, I thought I'd try the $350 Irvin after she melted into my Eastman Model. Again, if it was too short, heavy, etc, no big deal....use it as a housecoat to let the dogs out. It was really only the zipper issues that made me wonder if going one step up was worthwhile.

Now, I still think that ponying up an extra 50% for qualities that I obsess over but she couldn't care less about, is probably wasted money. But, if an ALC is just nicer leather or more robustly built, that might be worth something.

Again, thanks for your (and everybody else's) input!

Deacon


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Smithy]

ALC's very early jackets were actually far nicer than the later and recent ones. Still not on par with an ELC or Aces High but a darn sight better than what they currently have on offer. FL member James Pibworth (although I haven't seen him post here in years) picked a very, very early ALC up back in 2006/2007 which was a lovely jacket.

As Edward says ALC's Irvin are popular with the open top motoring crowd - virtually any article in Classic and Sports Car on a vintage or classic convertible usually has the driver wearing one. Remember ALC is owned by Moto-Lita so the car crowd is their cash cow.

Saying that, Søren (Spitfire) here had an Irvin made by ALC in the hides they use for their lightweight Irvin version and it was streets better. I saw it and tried it on in the flesh when we last stayed with him in Denmark and it was a very nicely made jacket and a far better weight. If you decide that you want to get the better half an "Irvin" from ALC I would specify that they make one of the women's version in the lightweight Irvin hide (if they don't already offer that option).

 

[Stand By]

Oh, you're welcome Deacon.
And yes, I am speaking of Aviation Leathercraft (ALC) when I say that mine had no issues. The zipper worked just fine all those years and never failed me once - and the shearling, leather and stitching were all fine by me ... never a problem.
I can, however, ask my brother (I'm due to call him anyway!) what the exact issue with his was and get back to you if you like.

I'll also be at RAF Duxford for the air show this July - and ALC will be there as always at their stand - so if you're in no hurry to get a jacket for your wife, I can have a good look at them for you as I haven't looked too closely at how they're made in a long time nor tried one on (why would I now when Gary's tent is just over the way?!) - to determine if there's been any change from what I had and give you my impressions. I'd be only too glad to do that ... if you can wait.

And quite right, Smithy and Edward - my brother got his ALC Irvin for running about in his open-top TR-6 ...!

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks Smithy and Stby!

That's good advice about the Lightweight Irvin. I had considered it, but feared it might be too light.

Stby, I'm not sure when I'll make the purchase, probably before July if I know my personality! if I can hold off, I'd love your considered opinion. I'm actually pretty jealous...I'd love to be able to go to Duxford!

In the end, I'm leaning towards the lightweight Irvin. It doesn't need to be top end, just warm and comfortable enough to make my wife happy. Being a woman, even a modestly made jacket will likely outlive the service life of every piece of clothing she owns...combined!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spitfire]

Smithy beat me to it. If you go for the ALC Irvin go for the lightweight version. The heavyweight is VERY heavy and VERY bulky - even for big, grown men. ALC went along with making a "Irvin" using their lightweight fleece - why not ask them, if they'll do it again?
You wife will thank you for it. And she will not be cold either.

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks Spitfire!

I just sent off the enquiry before reading this. Thanks for the input...that's great gouge!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Stearmen]

Now, consider that 245 (Pounds) divided by 18 (years) = 15 Pounds -per annum ! Not a month - a year ! The price of a DVD. Now for what it did for me, that's astonishing value for money, no matter which way you slice it.

Now that really puts it into perspective! Lets see, $1500 Irvin, 20 years, $75 a year, $6.25 a month, about a $1.45 a week, less then a Quarter a day! Now I know how to justify an Aces High jacket!

 

[jon11]

they are all pretty expensive nowadays