Attorneys and Barristers of the Lounge

[Atticus Finch]

What a great story - worthy of Ephraim Tutt!

..and its not quite over, yet! Last part comes tomorrow.

Umm...you wouldn't happen to have a touch of Tennessee sippin' wiskey to go with my Macanudo, would you?

AF

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Taking that point one step farther Brother Spats, when I have a witness in front of me who is completely hostile and I believe the jury can see the witness' prejudice against my client, I have often used the tactic of saying, "I have no questions of this witness." I cannot tell you how many times the look of disappointment on the witness' face was better than anything I could have gotten from the witness and I use that disappointed look in my closing argument to defuse the witness' credibility.

You have to pick your spots to do this but I believe it is better to get a hostile witness off the stand than to allow him to keep shooting at my client's case. As my old trial advocacy professor said, "There is nothing in the rules of civil procedure that compels you to cross examine every witness." Best, Sam

I'll bet you're a damn fine chess player, Brother Sam.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

..and its not quite over, yet! Last part comes tomorrow.

Umm...you wouldn't happen to have a touch of Tennessee sippin' wiskey to go with my Macanudo, would you?

AF

We have everything here Brother Atticus. Some well aged, mellow Tennessee Whiskey comin' right up.

Great story.

 

[warbird]

..and its not quite over, yet! Last part comes tomorrow.

Umm...you wouldn't happen to have a touch of Tennessee sippin' wiskey to go with my Macanudo, would you?

AF

Make it our lesser known but better tasting George Dickel aged and you will be feeling right with the world.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Make it our lesser known but better tasting George Dickel aged and you will be feeling right with the world.

G'day Warbird. You set 'em up and we'll knock 'em down!

 

[C-dot]

Lovely to see you C-dot. I do have a thing for redheads, but don't let that scare you away. Make yourself at home - there's a few brothers of the criminal bar hanging around who could steer you aright.

Why does criminal law attract you? (I can understand the aversion to family law!)

Well, thanks for the compliment

Would it make sense to say that participating in due process of law - that is to say, making sure criminals get what they deserve - is what attracts me to criminal law? As far back as elementary school, if I saw two students break the same rule and one got off lighter than the other, it would enrage me, and I'd be preoccupied for days.

I'm prone to bursts of emotion, so being an actual lawyer would take a huge toll on me. As a paralegal, I do all the work the lawyer does, except represent in court and accept/reject cases (not to mention the time and tuition for paralegal education are drastically reduced!)

That's why I'm glad to have the chance to talk to criminal lawyers here. Would a passionate, wild-eyed kid like me work well in this field of law? Will I bend under the workload? I'm not taken by real estate or family law. I want to help put away, or change the minds of, dangers to society.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Why the Name Change???

Can the Ghost responsible for the name change please 'fess up and explain?
And can I suggest that the new designation does not work and that perhaps some consultation would have been appropriate. Those of our profession in the British tradition are rarely referred to as Attorneys, but Solicitors.

 

[Doublegun]

Make it our lesser known but better tasting George Dickel aged and you will be feeling right with the world.

I am partial to Buffalo Trace although I had a one night thing with a bottle of Old Pogue recently that is making me re-think my taste in hootch.

Cheers.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Make it our lesser known but better tasting George Dickel aged and you will be feeling right with the world.

Yes, thank you. A spot of Dickel would be splendid. Gently poured over a few cubes of well-water ice, please.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

Well, thanks for the compliment

Would it make sense to say that participating in due process of law - that is to say, making sure criminals get what they deserve - is what attracts me to criminal law? As far back as elementary school, if I saw two students break the same rule and one got off lighter than the other, it would enrage me, and I'd be preoccupied for days.

I'm prone to bursts of emotion, so being an actual lawyer would take a huge toll on me. As a paralegal, I do all the work the lawyer does, except represent in court and accept/reject cases (not to mention the time and tuition for paralegal education are drastically reduced!)

That's why I'm glad to have the chance to talk to criminal lawyers here. Would a passionate, wild-eyed kid like me work well in this field of law? Will I bend under the workload? I'm not taken by real estate or family law. I want to help put away, or change the minds of, dangers to society.

C-Dot, please forget about consorting with criminal lawyers. They are good souls, but they are required to zealously advocate for their clients...and you know who their clients are. Clearly, you hear the song of a higher calling. My Dear, you have the heart of a prosecutor!

AF

 

[warbird]

C-Dot, please forget about consorting with criminal lawyers. They are good souls, but they are required to zealously advocate for their clients...and you know who their clients are. Clearly, you hear the song of a higher calling. My Dear, you have the heart of a prosecutor!

AF

I'd agree. If you are interested in seeing criminals get 'what they deserve' you would not like working for a criminal attorney. Their job is seeing their clients (criminals if indeed they are guilty) get the lightest possible sentence. you ned to work for a prosecutor, ie government agency, at some level.

 

[tortswon]

Would it make sense to say that participating in due process of law - that is to say, making sure criminals get what they deserve - is what attracts me to criminal law? As far back as elementary school, if I saw two students break the same rule and one got off lighter than the other, it would enrage me, and I'd be preoccupied for days.

Hi C-Dot. I'm not a criminal lawyer but I have spent some time working in the field of legal ethics so you can take what I say for what it's worth. "Due process of law" is first and foremost a process. in which all of the participants play a specified role. If you want to make sure "criminals get what they deserve," you should be working in a judicial setting rather than an advocacy situation.

The role of an attorney and his/her staff is to zealously advocate for the client within the bounds of the law. IMHO, there is no place for making judgments about a criminal defendant in his/her lawyer's office. It is not up to the lawyer to decide what the defendant deserves, that is what judges and juries do.

Prosecutors have responsibilities beyond those of the defense lawyers and I will defer to our capable brethren on the prosecution side to describe those for you.

If you get as upset over injustice now as you did in school, I think you need to reflect on this possible career path. I do ont mean to sound cynical but those of us in the legal profession constantly face injustice. Sometimes we prevail and sometimes we do not. What we must do when we see injustice is to try to right it. Whether we succeed or not, we cannot allow it to impact our professionalism or weigh us down to the point where it impairs our ability to represent our other clients. We go back to court the next day on the next case without allowing the prior's day injustice to impair our zealous representation of today's client.

As the eminent legal philosopher Billy Bragg sang in Rotting on Remand:

I stood before the judge that day
As he refused me bail
And i knew that i would spend my time
Awaiting trial in jail
I said there is no justice
As they led me out of the door
And the judge said, "this isn't a court of justice, son
This is a court of law."

Best, Sam

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

The Obs Bar Association remains open

While I don't want to turn what is a generally festive and cheerful environment into an angry mob I should indicate that I have received no response to my enquiry regarding the change of name to our banner.

What I will say is that those things regarded as rude and unacceptable in the 'real' world remain so in the online world, just as abuse of power 'out there' remains so in here.

The unilateral decision to alter the name of this thread without any consultation is simply contemptious of those who use this Forum and reflects badly on the maturity of those who have responsibility for moderating this place.

Had we been consulted, we would undoubtedly have addressed any concerns expressed. We were not given that opportunity and that is unacceptable.

That being said, I will continue to seek an explanation from whoever changed the thread name. Until then, whatever the name on the banner reads, this place will remain the Observation Bar Association in our communications among ourselves.

Now...what are you drinking? My shout!
ET

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Well, thanks for the compliment

Would it make sense to say that participating in due process of law - that is to say, making sure criminals get what they deserve - is what attracts me to criminal law? As far back as elementary school, if I saw two students break the same rule and one got off lighter than the other, it would enrage me, and I'd be preoccupied for days.

I'm prone to bursts of emotion, so being an actual lawyer would take a huge toll on me. As a paralegal, I do all the work the lawyer does, except represent in court and accept/reject cases (not to mention the time and tuition for paralegal education are drastically reduced!)

That's why I'm glad to have the chance to talk to criminal lawyers here. Would a passionate, wild-eyed kid like me work well in this field of law? Will I bend under the workload? I'm not taken by real estate or family law. I want to help put away, or change the minds of, dangers to society.

Would it make sense to say that participating in due process of law - that is to say, making sure criminals get what they deserve - is what attracts me to criminal law? As far back as elementary school, if I saw two students break the same rule and one got off lighter than the other, it would enrage me, and I'd be preoccupied for days.

I'm prone to bursts of emotion, so being an actual lawyer would take a huge toll on me. As a paralegal, I do all the work the lawyer does, except represent in court and accept/reject cases (not to mention the time and tuition for paralegal education are drastically reduced!)

That's why I'm glad to have the chance to talk to criminal lawyers here. Would a passionate, wild-eyed kid like me work well in this field of law? Will I bend under the workload? I'm not taken by real estate or family law. I want to help put away, or change the minds of, dangers to society.[/QUOTE]

Welcome back C-Dot! It is the job of all of those involved in the legal world, whether in prosecution or defence, plaintiff or respondent, to assist the administration of justice. Part of that is to accept that all people charged with an offence are innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

I often hear my fellow lawyers declare that law has nothing to do with justice. Law is about winning and not about truth. Those of us charged with administering justice must never accept this as the standard by which we act. Justice is the direction in which all law must move. We may not be there yet but it is the duty of all of us involved in law to continually prod the law in that aspirational direction. If we simply accept mediocrity, there is no longer any point to the rule of law.

So, by all means involve yourself in criminal law. But do so accepting the foundations on which the criminal law is based - the presumption of innocence.

Can you do that?

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Back to Business - Today's Vintage Lid

The Borsalino 1930's/40's? 'Daino':

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Gotta say I'm rather fond of that tie too. It cost me all of one buck and is a Burberrys (with the 's' so we know it's 1999 or before) wool & cashmere made in Italy. I don't think it's that old - maybe between 10 & 20years but who knows. I like the way it feels and hangs, and in a world of silk and polyester ties this one gets noticed everytime I wear it.

All for the price of $1. Sweet.

 

[scotrace]

While I don't want to turn what is a generally festive and cheerful environment into an angry mob I should indicate that I have received no response to my enquiry regarding the change of name to our banner.

What I will say is that those things regarded as rude and unacceptable in the 'real' world remain so in the online world, just as abuse of power 'out there' remains so in here.

The unilateral decision to alter the name of this thread without any consultation is simply contemptious of those who use this Forum and reflects badly on the maturity of those who have responsibility for moderating this place.

Had we been consulted, we would undoubtedly have addressed any concerns expressed. We were not given that opportunity and that is unacceptable.

That being said, I will continue to seek an explanation from whoever changed the thread name. Until then, whatever the name on the banner reads, this place will remain the Observation Bar Association in our communications among ourselves.

Now...what are you drinking? My shout!
ET

Good Lord.

The title was changed to better reflect the contents of the thread to the general population.
We've viewed this thread with alarm - it would have been better to, ahem, seek input from a moderator first. While the thread itself is perfectly fine (what bar would not like to have a large group meeting there regularly?), we must think of the larger picture (a burden of which you are free). Now we have a thread for people in the advertising business. The question arises: Do we want dozens of threads for every profession imaginable? The Plumber's Union? The Operating Room? The Pipe Fitter's Wigwam? Well, no, we'd rather not.
One further point - this is a thread, not a forum, you do not own it, we do. The Bartenders, as you'll note in the FAQ, make modifications as they see fit, and do so at great expense of time and personal life, and, I might add, without pay. To be scolded for doing the job kind of gets one's dander up (though I did not personally change the title, I agreed with the need to do so).

Carry on. But a note to the casual reader: Please, ask us before beginning any more "professional associations" within the forums.

This is all any of us will say on the matter. Who wants to get into a peein' match with a roomful of lawyers? lol

 

[Edward]

I am partial to Buffalo Trace although I had a one night thing with a bottle of Old Pogue recently that is making me re-think my taste in hootch.

Cheers.

Old Pogue? Seriously? That's hilarious! lol

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Good Lord.

The title was changed to better reflect the contents of the thread to the general population.
lol

Thanks scotrace

As an attorney, law professor and mentor to young attorneys I chose not be part of this thread. This is the very reason why the general public has a poor perception of what an attorney is. There is an appearance of smugness and elitism whenever any profession chooses to set themselves apart from the rest of society; while clearly attempting to cling to the societal norms. From my perspective the Fedora Lounge is a microcosm of society. I have seen in this very thread a semblance of a ranking or cast system.

When I ask what the Fedora Lounge is the answer I get is as follows:

“This swanky venue resembles a 1930’s-1940’s club comprised of like minded people who share an interest and passion in the ‘Golden Era’. So stop on in, pull up a chair, order a drink and discuss the finer things in life, from cars to hats and clothes, music, aircraft, WWII, movies and more”.

I see nothing about the formation or gathering of a professional society; especially one not sanctioned or recognized by any authority whatsoever.

The segregation between Attorney and layperson has always driven a wedge, caused resentment and distrust among the general public.

Just my two cents.

 

[Spats McGee]

@ C-dot: Re-read what Atticus Finch and tortswon have written. They're both right, and they've spoken well. But a great lawyer that I know used to say, "No matter how thin you pour a pancake, it still has two sides." So I'm going to speak up on behalf of the defense.

I guess my question is this: When you say you want to see criminals "get what they deserve," what exactly is it that you do see? If you are looking to make sure that the guilty are convicted & punished, then head for the prosecutor's office, by all means. I know many prosecutors and I am glad to draw some of them as opponents, not because I know I can beat them at trial, but because I know them to reasonable and fair opponents. Others . . . well, let's just say that I'm markedly less glad to draw others.

On the other hand, if you want to make sure that criminal defendants get a fair trial, which they also deserve, then criminal defense just might be for you. Here's my $0.02 on practicing criminal defense & it ties in to the presumption of innocence that AF and tortswon both mentioned:

• My criminal defense clients are entitled to a presumption of innocence, regardless of whether or not they are actually innocent.
• It is not my job to make sure that guilty clients go free at any cost.
• It is my job to protect my clients rights.
• It is my job to make sure that they get fair trials.
• It is my job to try to get them the lightest possible sentence.
• If the State makes a plea offer, it is my job to weigh that against possible outcomes if the case were to go to trial, and advise accordingly.
• It is my job to make sure that the State upholds its burden of proving each and every element of every crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt.

To me, the primary difference between criminal defense and civil litigation is the stakes involved for the clients. Don't get me wrong. The stakes in civil litigation are serious: Child support payments, child custody, money, houses, you name it. It is not my intention to say that those stakes are not serious, but in criminal defense work, somebody's freedom is at stake.