Attorneys and Barristers of the Lounge

[Ephraim Tutt]

Welcome New Associate Members

Anon
Dreispitz
Miss Bella
Ms Stabby

With the approval of the Observation Bar Association Admissions Board I warmly welcome you as Associate Members of our little gathering.

Drop in regularly and enjoy the first rate company that populates these parts.

Now...what are you drinking?

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Thank you, sir. I gladly accept and offer a toast to the profession:

The world has its fling at lawyers sometimes, but its very denial
is an admission. It feels, what I believe to be the truth,
that of all secular professions this has the highest standards.

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr :cheers1:

That, Mr Harp, is a fine toast and is worthy of inclusion in my next journal article for the profession here in my home jursidiction!

Welcome brother of the bar. I'm sure my fellow Foundation Members will also want to welcome you personally as a new Foundation Member of our little Bar Association. Try the Domain Day Aussie Reisling! Or some of that Oregon Pinot perhaps?

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

And today's hat is....

The Churchill Beaver 50, 1960's grey/green stingy I mentioned last week.
The tie you can just barely see is a 1930's Wembley Worsted Mohair in black, an amazing shade of green and grey stripes.

By the look on my face I'm concentrating on trying to get the angle right. All attempts at nonchalance have disappeared.

And the tie - which I picked up from Vintage American (man those vintage ties are short!)

 

[Dreispitz]

G'day Dreispitz,

Many of our members would, I'm sure, love to hear your recommendations on German Beer! Not being a beer drinker myself, I tend to foget about anything but wine. But the Bar caters for all tastes!

Slovenian wine eh? These folk have probably been tending their vineyards for generations catering for a small, local market. Old vines and generations of experience tend to make for a worthy product whatever the country.

Now.....do you have some pictures of your old Huckels you'd like to share with us?

First to all the foundation members of thes thread: Thank you very much vor my admition!!

Mr. Tutt,

pictures of Hückel hats and historic material can be found, here.

Personally, I am actually a wine person. Occasionally I also drink beer. Will post some material on some local beers, once I come across them

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

First to all the foundation members of thes thread: Thank you very much vor my admition!!

Mr. Tutt,

pictures of Hückel hats and historic material can be found, here.

Personally, I am actually a wine person. Occasionally I also drink beer. Will post some material on some local beers, once I come across them

Welcome to our exclusive little gathering Dreipsitz.
We'll look forward to your contributions from a German perspective...especially on the wines and beers. And the Huckels of course!

 

[Spats McGee]

. . . . With wine it is a diferent story. I come from the Munich area, where beer production is prominent and no wine is grown in the area. Therefore we are lucky to get all the international wine next to German.

Yes, but the beers are first-class! I lived in Regensburg for about a year from August 1998 to about July 1999. If I remember rightly, the Thurn & Taxis brewery was bought out right before I left. All of the locals that I knew scoffed at the Thurn & Taxis Hefeweizen, but I thought it was fantastic.

The other thing that I've missed is an Italian frizzantino (sp?). It was a very lightly sparkling Italian wine, not very expensive, but very drinkable. Very nice for a warm afternoon of sitting on the balcony.

. . . . Unfortunately, there is very limited export of the excellent winemakers of the country. Many of wich are small boutique winyards with an outturn of sometimes less than 1200 bottles per year, per individual type.

So, they mainly cater to local slow food places and connesseurs. I very much like the local tinge, diferent soils and a huge variety of local old grapes that one cannot find elsewhere.

So much about German wine, that I very rarely drink. lol For recomendations of German wine, I should contact a wine friend of mine in Slovenia . . . .

Truth be told, I find most of the German wines to have a little too much of a one-note character for my tastes. (They're eintoenig. At least I think that's the word.) With that said, I did live outside of Stuttgart, actually closer to Schorndorf, for a year in the late 80s, and the Swaben make a number of nice wines.

As regards the boutique winemakers, that was one of the things that I always liked about Germany when I lived there. I drank local wines at home, but if I went on a weekend trip, even for a relatively short distance, I might not be able to get my local wine on the trip & would have to try something new. That was always fun.

A note on linguistic & legal differences: First of all, I invite anybody knowledgeable in German law to correct me if I'm wrong on this. In America, we have an offense called "public intoxication." Not a particularly serious offense, but it sounds pretty stern. In Germany, if my translation is correct, it's called "public over-enjoyment of alcohol." Now, that doesn't sound nearly as bad, does it? lol

 

[Atticus Finch]

Greetings, Brothers and Sisters of the Bar. I have to say that I am enjoying this thread more than any on the Lounge, with the possible exception of the Open Road Guild thread. But may I make a suggestion? Wouldn't it be great to sit before a crackling fire, with a good cigar and a touch of spirits, and listen while some of the older members among us spin a few lighthearted war stories?

How about it, ladies and gents...anybody have any "Perry Mason" moments that they'd care to share?

AF

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

A note on linguistic & legal differences: First of all, I invite anybody knowledgeable in German law to correct me if I'm wrong on this. In America, we have an offense called "public intoxication." Not a particularly serious offense, but it sounds pretty stern. In Germany, if my translation is correct, it's called "public over-enjoyment of alcohol." Now, that doesn't sound nearly as bad, does it? lol

"Public over-enjoyment of alcohol". Clearly the legislators were not of the Calvinistic variety that coined the phrase "drunk and disorderly" in our statutes. I mean - the Germans had Luther - and that guy loved a beer! In fact, he could be said to over-enjoy himself regularly!

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Greetings, Brothers and Sisters of the Bar. I have to say that I am enjoying this thread more than any on the Lounge, with the possible exception of the Open Road Guild thread. But may I make a suggestion? Wouldn't it be great to sit before a crackling fire, with a good cigar and a touch of spirits, and listen while some of the older members among us spin a few lighthearted war stories?

How about it, ladies and gents...anybody have any "Perry Mason" moments that they'd care to share?

AF

Brother Finch - an excellent idea. Roll out the legal war stories and I'll stoke the fireplace and order a round of drinks.

I'll bet Brother Torts has a few from the bench as well as the bar!

 

[Dagwood]

I'm an attorney here in California. I don't "practice" the law, though, I work for the judiciary.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

I'm an attorney here in California. I don't "practice" the law, though, I work for the judiciary.

Welcome to the Observation Bar Association, Dagwood. There are many ways to practice law and we all do our bit for the administration of justice.

I practice in the field of lawyers' ethics.

We have at least one member of the Judiciary in our midst - albeit a temporary one.

So pull up a seat and let me order you a drink and feel free to share your thoughts on anything legal, vintage, hats, drinks, pens, cigars or whatever's on your mind at the time. What are you drinking?

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

As for legal war stories, this one isn't one of mine but it tickled my fancy when I read it in the ABA Journal back in the March 09 edition:

"There was a time when Richard “Race*horse” Haynes had his clients thank judges and juries at the end of their trials. But back-to-back cases in the 1970s changed his mind about that.

First, a Texas jury had just found his client not guilty on all counts, when Haynes told the court his client had something to say.

“Ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank each and every one of you,” the client stated. “And I promise you that I will never, ever do it again.”

A few weeks later, another Haynes client was acquitted. Again, the defendant thanked the judge and jury, only to be interrupted by the judge.

“Don’t thank me, you little turd,” the judge said. “You and I both know you’re guilty.”

See http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/richard_racehorse_haynes

 

[carebear]

Another (soon-to-be) late 30's law student here.

I left the mortgage biz last February and went back to school after 15 years to finish my BA in Justice. Finishing up this Spring, taking the LSAT in Dec. and putting together my list of schools to apply to. Looking in the mid-Atlantic area to be near family, George Mason is my top pick right now.

Also trying to get a commission in the Guard (too old now for the Corps to have me back), see if they'll help pay for law school in return for some JAG service, combine my two great loves.

I'm looking at criminal defense law with an eye toward Constitutional issues, haven't lost my libertarian ideals yet. My legal heroes are Brandeis for the historical side and Alan Guru for current events.

It's been a pleasant surprise that most attorneys I've talked to feel that it isn't "too late" for me to follow this dream, and that in fact my life and work experiences are a plus.

Oh, Harp, I'm also an aging Irish(-American) bachelor. My mother despairs of getting grandchildren, but I assure her that the forties are the prime for an Irishman. Have to give the wild geese of the soul time to return to the green fields of home after all.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Another (soon-to-be) late 30's law student here.

I left the mortgage biz last February and went back to school after 15 years to finish my BA in Justice. Finishing up this Spring, taking the LSAT in Dec. and putting together my list of schools to apply to. Looking in the mid-Atlantic area to be near family, George Mason is my top pick right now.

Also trying to get a commission in the Guard (too old now for the Corps to have me back), see if they'll help pay for law school in return for some JAG service, combine my two great loves.

I'm looking at criminal defense law with an eye toward Constitutional issues, haven't lost my libertarian ideals yet. My legal heroes are Brandeis for the historical side and Alan Guru for current events.

It's been a pleasant surprise that most attorneys I've talked to feel that it isn't "too late" for me to follow this dream, and that in fact my life and work experiences are a plus.

Oh, Harp, I'm also an aging Irish(-American) bachelor. My mother despairs of getting grandchildren, but I assure her that the forties are the prime for an Irishman. Have to give the wild geese of the soul time to return to the green fields of home after all.

G'day Carebear. Welcome to the Obs bar Association.
Yep there's a few of us round here that began our law degrees at about your age - and yes I'd absolutely concur that your life experience will be a definite plus.
I'm not much use with advice about law schools over there. As a graduate of the primary law school in this state - and a frequent visitor to all of the others, my view is that being a top tier school is often over-rated and the quality of legal education is the lesser ranked schools is equal to or better than I received.
Make yourself at home here at the Bar. There will be a few legal folks dropping in soon full of wisdom and experiences for you to draw on.
What are you drinking?

 

[Atticus Finch]

Well... I was the one who asked for war stories, so maybe I should be among the first to contribute. Problem is, and after reflection, I'm worried that the Mods may consider our war stories too blog-like. I even thought about filing a declaratory action with Scotrace or Hemmingway before taking the plunge. Oh well, what the heck, if thy rule against us, we'll just have to 'peel it up!

This is a two-cigar story so I'm gonna tell it in parts over our next few meetings. And by the way, Dear Mods, anything that I write that begins with, "...when I was a young ADA" is, as a matter of law, vintage.

Early on, when I was a young ADA, I learned that "discovery" and "direct examination" are often one and the same for a prosecutor.

Here’re the facts: A career criminal breaks into a neighborhood roadhouse by pulling off the building’s exterior siding and punching through the drywall. At opening time, the defendant is found by the bar’s owner…he’s unconscious in a pool of his own urine, face down behind the bar. The bar’s cash register has been moved to the floor, but nothing is missing from it. The defendant is in a state of utter intoxication…he’s absolutely hammered…but only one or two beers are missing from the bar’s cooler…that is, if the owner’s inventory is correct, and she’s not totally sure.

I’m trying the defendant for breaking and entry of a building, larceny and two counts of habitual felon. The defendant has raised a voluntary intoxication defense. No question about it…when the defendant was found, he was sufficiently intoxicated to lack the requisite intent. But when did he become intoxicated? Was it before the breaking or was it after he was inside the bar? Two thirty-year sentences hang on the answer…

AF

 

[tortswon]

G'day Carebear. Welcome to the Obs bar Association.
Yep there's a few of us round here that began our law degrees at about your age - and yes I'd absolutely concur that your life experience will be a definite plus.
I'm not much use with advice about law schools over there. As a graduate of the primary law school in this state - and a frequent visitor to all of the others, my view is that being a top tier school is often over-rated and the quality of legal education is the lesser ranked schools is equal to or better than I received.
Make yourself at home here at the Bar. There will be a few legal folks dropping in soon full of wisdom and experiences for you to draw on.
What are you drinking?

Carebear, I agree with Brother Tutt fully. I'm a graduate of the Brooklyn Law School which is not viewed as being a "top" law school by whoever makes those characterizations. The only time I believe your law school makes a difference is in getting your first job. Most of the "prestige" law firms (so characterized by those who determine what is a "top" law school) hire out of the "top" law schools. That said, I was offered a job at a "prestige" firm when I graduated because one of my third year professors was the Chief Judge of the Second Circuit and had worked at that firm before ascending the bench.

I didn't take that job which was in New York and returned to Philadelphia because I wanted to do civil trial work. At the "prestige" firm in would have taken me 5 years to get lead chair in a jury trial (at least). With the Philadelphia firm, I got sworn in at 10:00 AM and was picking a jury at 2:00 PM. I've been happily trying jury cases since then.

The moral of the story is go for what you want to do, not what "they" say. You are never to old to follow your dreams. I know a woman who graduated from law school at 74 and she is practicing now in her mid-80's. Best, Sam

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Well... I was the one who asked for war stories, so maybe I should be among the first to contribute. Problem is, and after reflection, I'm worried that the Mods may consider our war stories too blog-like. I even thought about filing a declaratory action with Scotrace or Hemmingway before taking the plunge. Oh well, what the heck, if thy rule against us, we'll just have to 'peel it up!

This is a two-cigar story so I'm gonna tell it in parts over our next few meetings. And by the way, Dear Mods, anything that I write that begins with, "...when I was a young ADA" is, as a matter of law, vintage.

Early on, when I was a young ADA, I learned that "discovery" and "direct examination" are often one and the same for a prosecutor.

Here’re the facts: A career criminal breaks into a neighborhood roadhouse by pulling off the building’s exterior siding and punching through the drywall. At opening time, the defendant is found by the bar’s owner…he’s unconscious in a pool of his own urine, face down behind the bar. The bar’s cash register has been moved to the floor, but nothing is missing from it. The defendant is in a state of utter intoxication…he’s absolutely hammered…but only one or two beers are missing from the bar’s cooler…that is, if the owner’s inventory is correct, and she’s not totally sure.

I’m trying the defendant for breaking and entry of a building, larceny and two counts of habitual felon. The defendant has raised a voluntary intoxication defense. No question about it…when the defendant was found, he was sufficiently intoxicated to lack the requisite intent. But when did he become intoxicated? Was it before the breaking or was it after he was inside the bar? Two thirty-year sentences hang on the answer…

AF

Good Aussie morning, Atticus. I think the Bartenders are happy to allow some flexibility here in the Observation Bar, so long as we don't abandon our vintage theme entirely.

Great tale. I'll light up my second stogie in preparation for Part Two.

And just as a matter of interest. if intoxication is sufficient to counter mens rea, then what does a prosecutor do over there? Our courts have become less than sympathetic to such defences over here, especially in the circumstances you describe.

When I've got a bit of time later I'll tell you about a case of a problem gambler who made off with several tens of millions of his employer's dollars - then claimed his gambling addiction was a recognised pathology akin to insanity and he therefore was not in control of his actions.

 

[carebear]

If his addiction is gambling then even small stakes should sate it. That he stole to feed it is therefore a different crime entirely.

But still, society's to blame...

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

The matter was R v Telford and the case involved a defendant who, as company secretary, had managed to secure over a number of years, over $22 million of his employers hard won dollars.

At trial, Mr Telford pleaded not guilty on the basis of insanity as his gambling addiction was a recognised psychological disorder that rendered him not responsible for his felonious misddeeds. It struck me as a strange defence at the time (but perhaps a reasonable argument in mitigation of sentence) as, if the Court had found in his favour he would have been put away in psychiatric facility at her Majesty's pleasure. I think I'd have preferred a definite period in jail.

His Honour did as the law requires and arranged for 3 experts to examine Mr Telford. All 3 reported that he did indeed have a gambling problem (I can think of 22 million reasons why that was obvious!).

After hearing the evidence, Justice Perry agreed that Mr Telford did indeed have a psychiatric condition that rendered his gambling compulsion beyond his control.

"But your stealing, on the other hand", opined his Honour, was well planned and well concealed over a long period. There was nothing compulsive about that!

Telford went down for 14 years.

So, Carebear, you and Justice Perry concur.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

My new vintage Borsalino

Noggin shots tomorrow.