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[John Galt]

anyone no what colour this sweatband could be View attachment 15865

That is what I personally refer to as a "caramel" colored sweatband. The oilskin sweat protector behind the sweatband is more interesting because it dates the hat to the early 1950's. I believe there are threads here that discuss this topic in detail.

 

[fedoracentric]

Those oil skin things were murder on hats, too. They trapped the sweat between the leather and the oilskin and rotted the crap out of the sweatband and stitching.

 

[liten]

That is what I personally refer to as a "caramel" colored sweatband. The oilskin sweat protector behind the sweatband is more interesting because it dates the hat to the early 1950's. I believe there are threads here that discuss this topic in detail.

thank you john

 

[John Galt]

Natch!

 

[Brian Niebuhr]

My 50's Stetson had an oilskin. Probably why the sweat is rotted. The hat doesn't seem like it was worn very much at all though and the sweatband looked and felt pretty good until I put some conditioner on it. Then it instantly turned to crispy bacon. So clearly it was rotted but it hadn't had the moisture to finish it off. I'm wondering, and this is just a theory I came up with just now, if the cause of rot is not so much sweat but the oilskin off-gassing. The toxic gasses from rotting plastic were trapped next to the leather and caused the leather to rot. I know this is an issue when storing guitars in their cases for long periods of time. The gasses from plastic knobs and pickguards can damage other parts of the guitar. Hmm, what do y'all think?

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

Generally the leather loses any oil that is retained in the leather over time. Hats have a tendency to be place in hot places and dry rot set's in.

 

[TheDane]

I watched the video on YouTube some time back, and believe it also cuts the sweat from the leather. Admittedly, I may be misremembering...

John, I didn't see this debate till now, so though it's not new, I'll toss in my opinion: It "only" cuts the sweat to the right length - and the ends to the right angle. Jim cuts his sweats with a hydraulic machine - a "clicker", I think, he calls it. He then cuts it to length with the device, you showed.

Those oil skin things were murder on hats, too. They trapped the sweat between the leather and the oilskin and rotted the crap out of the sweatband and stitching.

At least it's an often heard theory. I have seen a lot of rotten sweats with an oilskin membrane behind - and just as many without the membrane. I have never seen any documentation on a significant larger number of rotten sweats with the membrane. Do anyone actually have any hard knowledge on this subject? If so, I've never yet heard it - and I'm not happy to convict "murderers" on hearsay alone.

The toxic gasses from rotting plastic were trapped next to the leather and caused the leather to rot. I know this is an issue when storing guitars in their cases for long periods of time. The gasses from plastic knobs and pickguards can damage other parts of the guitar. Hmm, what do y'all think?

Yet another interesting theory. First of all, the oilskin was made from natural silk, and had nothing to do with plastic. And then I have never heard of rotting plastic. Rotting is the one thing, plastic never does.

The danger of harmfull off-gassing from cardboard boxes, plywood or chipboard cupboards, foam rubber and plastic bags is a lot bigger. That's a problem in all archives and museums - and it's very well documented

As Ed writes: Leather loses natural oils over time and decays. As with most other materials used in hatting, leather came in a lot of different qualities over the years. During war times, it has always been hard to source materials - also leather and tanning products. During the 40s - the decade, when most oilskin membranes were used - my parents wore shoes made from fish-skin, due to war time leather shortage. If you were lucky enough to get hold of any leather, it was of a terrible quality.


"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning"
- Werner Heissenberg

 

[fedoracentric]

The last hat I had with the extra large oil skin moisture barrier, the oil skin thing had essentially glued itself to the sweatband causing the band to rot. I tore out the oil skin thing and thought maybe I could save the hat, but as soon as it dried thoroughly the stitching started breaking (I did not pull the oil skin from all the way down into the stitching, either).

But one fact seems to argue that the industry realized that the barrier was a bad idea.... they stopped using them after only a short period in the early 50s!

 

[Brad Bowers]

But one fact seems to argue that the industry realized that the barrier was a bad idea.... they stopped using them after only a short period in the early 50s!

I must respectfully point out that Hat Corporation of America used oilskin tip protectors in Dobbs, Knox, and others from the early-1940s through the late-1960s. In the 1950s and 1960s they were used in their higher-end hats, Twenties and on up. Plastic was used in the lower-priced hats during the same period. The longevity of oilskin by HCA suggests there were no issues with quality.

Anecdotal note: every sweatband of mine that shriveled and died did so because of the introduction of moisture, mainly my sweat. Even my modern sweatbands do this, just over a much longer period of time.

Brad

 

[carouselvic]

The last hat I had with the extra large oil skin moisture barrier, the oil skin thing had essentially glued itself to the sweatband causing the band to rot. I tore out the oil skin thing and thought maybe I could save the hat, but as soon as it dried thoroughly the stitching started breaking (I did not pull the oil skin from all the way down into the stitching, either).

But one fact seems to argue that the industry realized that the barrier was a bad idea.... they stopped using them after only a short period in the early 50s!

Where do you get your Facts?

 

[facade]

The last hat I had with the extra large oil skin moisture barrier, the oil skin thing had essentially glued itself to the sweatband causing the band to rot. I tore out the oil skin thing and thought maybe I could save the hat, but as soon as it dried thoroughly the stitching started breaking (I did not pull the oil skin from all the way down into the stitching, either).

But one fact seems to argue that the industry realized that the barrier was a bad idea.... they stopped using them after only a short period in the early 50s!

I have a number of hats with liners, some post 50's. I've not noticed any greater rot percentages between lined and unlined. Personally I think how the hat was stored is the most relevant factor. Did it spend decades in an attic or garage freezing and unfreezing? But I'm no leather expert and my collection of hats is statistically irrelevant.

 

[TheDane]

Where do you get your Facts?

+1


And btw, do anyone here actually know, what we are talking about? I know, we all call it "rot", but is it really "rot"? Has anyone ever handed over a "rotten" sweatband to a microbiologist or a museum conservator to look at it under a microscope? Do anyone know, if any fungus, bacteria or other microbiological substance is involved in the process? Could it as well be some inorganic chemistry at work ... i.e. salt? Is it really a fact, that moisture is at the root of the problem? And/or could it be some cellular collapse, like it's known from speed grown construction wood?

So many unanswered questions - so few answered. If we ever find the answer to all these questions (and maybe even more), we can begin to think about finding an explanation to the phenomenon. Then it's probably a good time to think about a cause

 

[Joao Encarnado]

Alan have a microscope... for the the "rot" sweatband is the leather dried out.

 

[TheDane]

I do too, but the point is, that we shouldn't conclude on guesses. It has to be one with experience in that specific field - all due respect to Alan. You have to know, what you're looking for - and you have to have enough knowledge to parse, what you see

 

[viclip]

At least one hat manufacturer recently produced its high end hats incorporating an oilskin protective barrier between the leather sweatband & the hat body. Biltmore Canada heralded this feature as a big high quality selling point for their "Rosellini" line.

Biltmore Canada in 2012 went to Texas. I'm not terribly familiar with the American production i.e. I don't know whether oilskin is still being utilized.

Anyways I'd like to think that during the course of Biltmore Canada's long history, their personnel would have acquired knowledge based upon decades of experience, to the effect that sweats aren't harmed by oilskins. Since I've managed to amass over a dozen of those Canuck Rosellinis (arguably my favourites), I hope that's the case!

 

[ingineer]

I believe there are too many factors to find the “Big Red X” for this to be solved other than using design of experiments. Time, temperature, PH, humidity , type of tanning, fungus, source etc
But my humble guess it is the very acidic and corrosive component of human perspiration and skin oils
That being the main culprit, not the barrier .
Citing :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_rot_(leather)

Just an educated plumber's thought



Richard.

 

[TheDane]

Just an educated plumber's thought

Well, an old plumber once told me, that a plumber really knows his sh*t. I'm pretty much with you on this one, Richard

 

[dh66]

Sounds fair enough. I usually buy leather sweat bands for my hard hat suspension at work (waaaaaay better than the vinyl ones that come with them, and the terry cloth ones are often still damp and gross the next morning in summer) and they usually last a year or so before they rot completely. Fortunately they are much easier to change than the ones in a fedora.
And speaking strictly as a middle aged plumber, all sh*t is pretty much the same, it's only all the a-holes that are different.

 

[TheDane]

Leather Conservation Centre (LCC) in Northhampton, UK has done some research into the treatment of red rot. It seems, they used artificial ageing (artificial red rotting) "by exposing the leather samples to a concentration of sulfur dioxide (40-80ppm) and nitrogen dioxide (20-40ppm) at 40°C and 30% relative humidity for six and 12 weeks. Analyses were carried out at 2, 4 and 6 weeks for the six week trials, and at 3, 6, 9 and 12 weeks for the twelve week trials".

The interesting thing here is the very low humidity (only 30% relative humidity). It definitely sounds like, it's more the chemical composition of the sweat than it's moisture, that is the main cause of red rot.

PS: It's also now obvious, that the phenomenon is just called "rot". In fact it's a chemical deterioration, that has got nothing to do with microbes or fungus.

 

[TheDane]

And speaking strictly as a middle aged plumber, all sh*t is pretty much the same, it's only all the a-holes that are different.

You can really learn so much about life, if you just ask the right people ... not least plumbers