Ascots

[Hemingway Jones]

From the Hemingway Archives.

 

[CharlestonBows]

Kudos to Hemingway :eusa_clap -- I've done it as well. I love the ascot, and I love wearing them. We make them, and do a surprisingly healthy business with them. To me, it is one of the most underappreciated accessories in wardrobe. I think it's a smart look, adding formality while lending itself to a more relaxed application. Plus they are a lot of fun to wear!

I think I have a picture, if I can dig it out.

Go for it.

 

[luvthatlulu]

Technically, an ascot is worn for a more elegant look and usually with more formal clothes. A neck scarf is worn for a more relaxed, casual look and would be better suited for your purpose.

However, that "rule" was then, and this is now. Today the line is blurred and people use them interchangeably, even if incorrectly. So you need to decide two things first:

1. Is the bush jacket you intend to wear a formal garment in your mind?

2. Do you want to be PC (period correct), or follow the more modern trend to use both interchangeably?



--Not the Lulu

 

[CharlestonBows]

I think the way the "rule" is applied has a lot to do with the pattern of the cloth itself. If it's a more colorful, exciting paisley, it's going to lend itself more easily to a more casual, daytime, application. Treat it as as you would a neckerchief. (Cary Grant, "To Catch A Thief") However, if you go with a black satin or dark neated pattern, that's obviously a more formal direction.

I always liken it to neckties. If the tie is colorful and fun, it's a daytime thing. Satin solids? That's formal elegance.

You are right concerning period correctness, though.

But that's just my own opinion of things.

 

[Smithy]

Technically, an ascot is worn for a more elegant look and usually with more formal clothes. A neck scarf is worn for a more relaxed, casual look and would be better suited for your purpose.

Actually that's not entirely correct Lulu.

There are two different types of cravat (sorry can't bring myself to use Ascot, that's a racecourse ). A formal one which is typically worn with morning dress or similar, and a more informal version (often referred to as a day cravat) which is worn with more casual attire such as blazer and flannels, etc. The formal version also tends to be far thicker and hence gives a "stiffer" appearance when worn.


EDIT - by the way I should have added a cravat (the informal type) is perfectly acceptable with a safari suit or bush jacket. There are many, many photos from the previous century of gentlemen on safari wearing just such an outfit.

 

[luvthatlulu]

Actually that's not entirely correct Lulu.

There are two different types of cravat (sorry can't bring myself to use Ascot, that's a racecourse ). A formal one which is typically worn with morning dress or similar, and a more informal version (often referred to as a day cravat) which is worn with more casual attire such as blazer and flannels, etc. The formal version also tends to be far thicker and hence gives a "stiffer" appearance when worn.


EDIT - by the way I should have added a cravat (the informal type) is perfectly acceptable with a safari suit or bush jacket. There are many, many photos from the previous century of gentlemen on safari wearing just such an outfit.

Actually, I'm still correct. The formal cravat, as you described, is still for more formal wear. Agreed? The day cravat, as you described, is worn with less formal wear "such as blazer and flannels, etc." A bush jacket, my friend, is not in the same league as either of the above. And, while there may be photos of gents from bygone eras wearing them with their safari apparel, one must remember that there were errors in proper dress made by men in all decades -- not just today.

The pattern, as described in Charleston Bows post, sets the tone; but I recommend neither with a bush jacket for period correctness.

--Not the Lulu

 

[Smithy]

Actually, I'm still correct. The formal cravat, as you described, is still for more formal wear. Agreed? The day cravat, as you described, is worn with less formal wear "such as blazer and flannels, etc." A bush jacket, my friend, is not in the same league as either of the above. And, while there may be photos of gents from bygone eras wearing them with their safari apparel, one must remember that there were errors in proper dress made by men in all decades -- not just today.

The pattern, as described in Charleston Bows post, sets the tone; but I recommend neither with a bush jacket for period correctness.

--Not the Lulu

From the acidic tone of your post Lulu I seem to have offended you and that was not how my original post was intended. I was merely trying to highlight the differences between the two cravats for the original poster (which he may not be aware of) and also point out that the "informal version" was seen with bush jackets and safari outfits. The British tropical KD (very like a bush jacket) was frequently worn with a cravat.

Merely trying to offer what I know to the thread and I am sorry if my contribution somehow offended you.

 

[Feraud]

Smithy is entirely correct.
We have indeed seen ascots/cravats worn in informal settings as well as formal. There is nothing wrong with wearing an ascot of scarf with a bush jacket.
If the solider/hunter/adventurer in Africa wore one, who are we sitting safely behind our keyboards to say they are wrong?

 

[eightbore]

2. Do you want to be PC (period correct), or follow the more modern trend to use both interchangeably?...

And, while there may be photos of gents from bygone eras wearing them with their safari apparel, one must remember that there were errors in proper dress made by men in all decades -- not just today.

The pattern, as described in Charleston Bows post, sets the tone; but I recommend neither with a bush jacket for period correctness.

I really don't want to be adversarial as I am new here...but if several old photos survive of a particular mode of daily dress then it IS a period correct mode by definition. Whether one defines this as "proper" or "improper" by whatever modern or period convention is really beside the point. The reality is that said mode of dress was "practically" defined as proper by those we are seeking to emulate in our appearance. I think we might ask ourselves if are we trying to adhere to what an early 20th century book says people should have been wearing at the time or to what they ACTUALLY WERE wearing? In short, the choice is sometimes between wearing academically period correct attire and actual period correct attire. Sometimes they are the same thing and sometimes they are not. When not, the latter is much more appealing to me.

JMHO,

eightbore

 

[Spitfire]

I do believe cravat goes very well with the bushjacket too.

And so does Edward Fox...

Even goes well with Irvin's, cigar and strawhat.

 

[luvthatlulu]

No offense intended or taken, gents. Just our observations and we obviously disagree on some. That's what keeps the Lounge entertaining.

I agree that many men have worn ascots with less formal wear--even their safari outfits--but that, in and of itself, does not change the original purpose. An example would be use of the ascot in the military. Color guards often don them to add a degree of formality to an already formal uniform. They vary in color from solid reds, golds, and blues. I've even seen some elite special forces color guards wearing a Woodland camo version. But I don't think you would ever see them being worn under the BDUs in any situation (unless, of course, you were a rear-echelon "commando' just begging to get your butt whipped).

Here's a humorous personal experience I had that I will relay just out of boredom today (Hope you enjoy it and my folly):

When I was in AFROTC in college in the early 70s and going thru intial flight training, we were issued an orange (Go Vols!) ascot made of polyester to wear with our flightsuits. One day I'm sitting in a Flight Service Station preparing a flight plan and proudly wearing said ascot when an elderly English gent in full regalia -- tweed cap, tweed jacket, guncheck shirt and woolie bowtie, handle-bar moustache, silver-tipped cane, etc -- steps up to me and asks in a typically booming and very proper English tone, "What's that about your throat, lad?"

Me (meekly): "My neck scarf from the squadron at the University of Tennessee."

Mr. Tweed: "Oh, good Lord, man...you're supposed to be one of the elite! Your country's at war and you're parading about like a twit! Scarf, man....scarf! A real (his emphasis, not mine) pilot wears a scarf, lad." Now he's pumping that cane up and down for emphasis and walking away. I'm hoping the earth will open up and swallow me whole.

From that day forward you would have to look very hard to find any picture of me with that ascot on. And if I had ever tried to wear one at a real (my emphasis this time) operational squadron with my flightsuit, I would have deserved the ridicule (and butt-whipping) I would have gotten.

Wear your ascot with your bush jacket if you like. Don't say I didn't warn you.



--Not the Lulu

 

[Spitfire]

Well - "Not that Lulu" - you asked for it. Polyester!!!!!
We are talking silk here.

 

[twobarbreak]

Smithy is entirely correct.
We have indeed seen ascots/cravats worn in informal settings as well as formal. There is nothing wrong with wearing an ascot of scarf with a bush jacket.
If the solider/hunter/adventurer in Africa wore one, who are we sitting safely behind our keyboards to say they are wrong?

Yes, same could be said with Car Coats, or belted jackets...It seemed to be kind of a Hollywood to wear ascots/cravats with more then they were fashionably intended for...

sometimes, Its not what your wearing it's how ya wear it....:eusa_clap

 

[luvthatlulu]

Well - "Not that Lulu" - you asked for it. Polyester!!!!!
We are talking silk here.

On that, we agree.

And it's Not the Lulu, Spitfire.

 

[Spitfire]

So sorry about that Not THE Lulu. We have to be if not Period Correct - then at least correct.
Besides that I think it's better to use different things from different periods - and have a good time - than being PC stiff.

I wear a cravat - or silk scarf almost daily - it's nice, it's colorfull and adds a bit of "flash" to the daily black / darkblue pants and shirt.
Ties are boring and formal - cravats are great. Me think.

 

[luvthatlulu]

And all is right in the world. Cheers, Spitfire.

 

[Ecuador Jim]

Didn't Tom Hanks wear one with his bush outfit in "Joe vs. the Volcano"?
Leopard print as I recall.

 

[luvthatlulu]

Didn't Tom Hanks wear one with his bush outfit in "Joe vs. the Volcano"?
Leopard print as I recall.

Oh, Lord. So now we're using Tom Hanks as our fashion guide? And wasn't that movie a comedy? I'm done talking here, I think. There are none so blind as those who would rather argue and quibble than see. Enjoy your ascots. [We don't need this sort of comment, even in jest. -HJ]


Kidding. I love you all dearly and worry about you daily.

--Not the Lulu

 

[luvthatlulu]

Belly Tank

Thanks for correcting me. As I said, "I don't think you would ever see them being worn under the BDUs in any situation", but that doesn't mean no one ever did/will. I don't think you will ever see a top hat being worn by a helicopter pilot in combat either, but thanks to Hollywood and Mickey Rooney you can produce a photo proving me wrong there, too (see The Bridges at Toko-Ri). What's your point?

Suppose I asked, "Should I wear tennis shoes with a tuxedo?" I believe most Loungers would react in horror and say no. But Google Ralph Lauren enough and there, lo and behold, is a photo of Mr. Lauren doing so. Does that make it right, or acceptable, by default?

And now that you've finished, please read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascot_tie

and tell me where it says an ascot should or can be worn with one's BDUs/bush jacket. There is a big difference between "should wear" and "can wear" and that's all I'm trying to address. Everything else is quibbling over details.

 

[Rooster]

OK, I'll jump in!!!! It was quite common for English officers of WWII to wear an ascot with their less formal uniforms.