Anyone else interested in the ancient world?

[Tiki Tom]

This is a tough one: do I put this story here? Or in the “agents of F.L.A.S.K” thread? Or in the “Indiana Jones 5” thread?

The standard story (amazing as it is) is that, after the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70 A.D., they took the golden menorah from the second temple to Rome. The menorah stayed there until the Roman Empire fell and Rome was sacked by Alaric, king of the Visigoths, in the 5th century. After sacking Rome, Alaric headed South with wagonloads of treasure, including the Jerusalem menorah. However, Alaric fell ill and died on the road near the city of Cosenza. Supposedly, Alaric’s loyal generals diverted a nearby river and buried Alaric and a portion of his treasure, including the menorah, in the riverbed and then rerouted the river to its original course, thus brilliantly hiding the tomb and safeguarding it from looters.

SS chief, Heinrich Himmler, was so fascinated by this account that he devoted time and energy to finding Alaric’s treasure tomb. He never found it.

There is an alternate version of these events, however. The alternate version basically says that the Vatican inherited the menorah after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, and Alaric missed the golden menorah when he sacked Rome. According to this version, the menorah and other 2nd temple treasures are hidden away in a secret vault beneath the Vatican. Presumably nearby that famous secret library of heretical texts, volumes of demonic spells, and books on alchemy.

Personally, I doubt That Alaric’s grave still exists and —if it did— I don’t think you’ll find it full of treasure. The menorah was probably melted down 1,500 years ago. I certainly don’t believe that the Vatican has a secret treasure vault that has eluded discovery all these years.

Nonetheless, it’s a fascinating historical mystery of the ancient world. It involves an incredibly significant lost treasure. Even more interesting is that there are those today (cue the Indiana Jones theme) who are still earnestly seeking the lost menorah from the second temple of Jerusalem.

This guy is nuts. But sometimes it is entertaining to have crazy people around.

https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/article-696068

 

[Harp]

I doubt that the Menorah ever reached Rome; nevertheless all fables posesses a smidgen
of truth, and riverine deceptive diver engineering schrewedness sows cause to suspect
some truth therein. More fascinating is the lost Ark of The Covenant odyssey which a decade ago
swore Keyna locus, Israeli commando remove, and presumed Israel recover.

 

[Tiki Tom]

I’m a bit of an “Antiques Roadshow” fan. I always like it when someone brings in something from their attic, and then finds out that is a rare collectors item. But I’ve never seen anything like this; in Texas a woman found a 2,000 year old Roman bust at a Goodwill store. Asking price? $35.
Turns out the bust was likely looted from a German palace by a U.S. G.I. during WWII. All in all, a very interesting article.

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[Tiki Tom]

Unprecedented lifetime ban on acquiring antiquities?
Anyone else would be facing time in jail.

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/us-returns-looted-artifacts-italy/index.html

 

[Tiki Tom]

Cool stuff. World’s oldest song is over 3,000 years old and the notes and words were found on a clay tablet. This group does not claim that they are playing it exactly how the ancient’s played it (there is an academic dispute about how to do that) but they are giving it their interpretation.

Here is an interesting article about the ancient song and the group trying to resurrect the old sounds:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...e-heilung-on-recording-the-worlds-oldest-song

Famously “the past is a foreign country”. This is, maybe, another way to begin to “feel” what it might have been like to live in that country.

Any other examples that you can share?

 

[Tiki Tom]

Is this the Lounge’s first Christmas story of 2022?

The tomb of Saint Nicholas has been found in Turkey!

https://www.the-sun.com/tech/6476373/grave-father-christmas-discovered-ancient-church/

Things I learned: why St Nicholas day is December 6th, and why we put candy in children’s shoes on that day. I, myself, always got rocks or potatoes in my shoes.

Secondly, sounds like evidence of a possible miracle: Though the tomb endured a major earthquake, hiding its location, the walls of the tomb were not damaged.

I love Saint Nicholas. Every second Greek that I know is named after him!

 

[Tiki Tom]

So… A pair of actual Egyptologists like to go galavanting around Egyptian archaeological sites dressed in 1920s period clothing. Fun, right? She especially looks the part… I think it’s her haircut. There are some nice photos in the article.

Goes almost without saying that they are being criticized for promoting “colonial chic” and worse. In short, it’s claimed that their behavior is an insult to their Egyptian hosts. Of course the criticism seems to be coming from their western academic colleagues, not the locals. Oh, c’mon. I doubt that any modern day Egyptians care one way or the other.

https://nypost.com/2022/11/12/meet-the-sexy-egyptology-scholars-who-dress-like-indiana-jones/

On the other hand, this might all be a contrived “controversy” to promote the couple’s book and on-line ventures.

Still… some fun period shots set among the ruins. (I am unqualified to judge how authentic their clothing is.)

 

[Tiki Tom]

Happy Saturnalia!
Party like it’s 3 B.C.!

https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-rome/saturnalia

 

[FOXTROT LAMONT]

Saturnalia in many ways runs needle thread thru history and human nature most decadent.
Rampant wokism forbade Latin at Princeton New Jersey allegedly due Roman blood thirst pillage.
The American eagle now will be symbolically castrated next because its talons are rapacious.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Rampant wokism forbade Latin at Princeton New Jersey allegedly due Roman blood thirst pillage.

Well, this is perhaps too “political“ for this forum, but the reason Princeton dropped Latin and Greek for people majoring in the classics was that these subjects were deemed too xxxx (inaccessible, narrow, culturally blinkered, boring, whatever) and, therefore, failed to attract the mix of students (race, sex, Star Wars vs Star Trek) that the university was hoping for. Please do not take my word for it. Multiple news stories, pro and con, are a google search away. Do Classics Majors really need to have a working knowledge of Latin or Greek? Perhaps not at the undergrad level. I would hope that post graduate students would need it, but —-being an amateur, myself— I’m probably not qualified to speak authoritatively on this topic. It does seem like an odd position for a top university to take, but I do confess that I am a bit of a dinosaur due to my superannuated status (TMB disease* sufferer) and all the baggage that comes with being born deep in the last century. Harrumph.

* Too Many Birthdays.

 

[FOXTROT LAMONT]

Well, this is perhaps too “political“ for this forum, but the reason Princeton dropped Latin and Greek for people majoring in the classics was that these subjects were deemed too xxxx (inaccessible, narrow, culturally blinkered, boring, whatever) and, therefore, failed to attract the mix of students (race, sex, Star Wars vs Star Trek) that the university was hoping for. Please do not take my word for it. Multiple news stories, pro and con, are a google search away. Do Classics Majors really need to have a working knowledge of Latin or Greek? Perhaps not at the undergrad level. I would hope that post graduate students would need it, but —-being an amateur, myself— I’m probably not qualified to speak authoritatively on this topic. It does seem like an odd position for a top university to take, but I do confess that I am a bit of a dinosaur due to my superannuated status (TMB disease* sufferer) and all the baggage that comes with being born deep in the last century. Harrumph.

* Too Many Birthdays.

Ancient Greek at the university is appropriate, Latin absolutely. These languages are mortar to historical
bricks, indispensable materials for any decent Classics curricula. Jettisoned, students are shorn sheep,
deprived of woolen warmth necessary to ascetic study within the mind's cold inner recess.

 

[Tiki Tom]

And? So what?
Apparently many men think about the Roman Empire frequently. And women don’t.
The Roman Empire probably flashes across my mind several times a week.
Frankly my experience is that most people have no (or very little) knowledge of history. So, if true, I view this as positive.

https://nypost.com/2023/09/14/women...mpire-trend-why-men-think-about-it-every-day/

How often do you think about the Roman Empire? SPQR.

 

[FOXTROT LAMONT]

A fair amount. If a person looks down at train rails one sees width set to Roman chariot wheels.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Interesting thread I wasn’t aware of. University classics departments in the US largely feed into law schools. The goal of that pipeline is not to create scholars but rather people with tools for textual analysis and formal argumentation. Having an intermediate level classical language capability is not absolutely conducive to those agendas (though it sure doesn’t hurt) and really only necessary for students intent on pursuing Classics graduate work. I agree that it’s a shame to let the language requirement go, but it does not serve the broadest agenda of Cassical studies in the US.

As for the couple galavanting around Egypt in Golden Era clothing, I find it useful to update fashion from a more racist time into a more inclusive time but I have to admit their flash is not interesting to me from a professional perspective. However, the Egyptologists who are quoted in the NY Post article decrying the couple and wanting to “forbid” their fashion choices sound utterly self-righteous and the one who says “in the year of our Lord 2022” sounds ridiculously hypocritical (which I’m sure the NYP editors intended).

My interest these days is largely Hasmonean and Herrodian era Jewish history and specifically the early development of Pharisaic and Rabbinic Judaism. I have spent some time in Egypt and fell in love with Karnak but have yet to visit Israel.

The engravings of the Barque of Ra on the walls of Karnak Temple are incredibly resonant with the descriptions of the Biblical Ark of the Covenant. Discovering that connection for myself at Karnak was a thrilling experience.

Okay, I’ll shut up now. Great thread, thanks!

 

[FOXTROT LAMONT]

University classics departments in the US largely feed into law schools. The goal of that pipeline is not to create scholars but rather people with tools for textual analysis and formal argumentation. Having an intermediate level classical language capability is not absolutely conducive to those agendas (though it sure doesn’t hurt) and really only necessary for students intent on pursuing Classics graduate work. I agree that it’s a shame to let the language requirement go, but it does not serve the broadest agenda of Cassical studies....

Classics study in the United States at basic baccalaureate tier without elementary-intermediate Latin mortar compact applied emasculates said curricula to such extent as to question content and sustained rigour,
depriving much intrinsic treasure and jewels for puerile flaccid cause.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Classics study in the United States at basic baccalaureate tier without elementary-intermediate Latin mortar compact applied emasculates said curricula to such extent as to question content and sustained rigour,
depriving much intrinsic treasure and jewels for puerile flaccid cause.

Why is that? It seems to me that you have presented a conclusion without any supporting arguments.

“emasculates curricula” how? What does that even mean?

“Depriving treasure and jewels” from whom? The students? The uni? Society at large? How so?

Again, classics departments in the US are not designed with the primary function of producing scholars. There simply isn’t enough need (let alone jobs) for that.

Without such an objective, a language requirement in a dead language has little practical value.

A hundred years ago authorities believed that knowledge of Latin and Greek was essential for being a leader in society. Nobody has believed that for at least five decades (at least).

 

[FOXTROT LAMONT]

Why is that? It seems to me that you have presented a conclusion without any supporting arguments.

“emasculates curricula” how? What does that even mean?

“Depriving treasure and jewels” from whom? The students? The uni? Society at large? How so?

Again, classics departments in the US are not designed with the primary function of producing scholars. There simply isn’t enough need (let alone jobs) for that.

Without such an objective, a language requirement in a dead language has little practical value.

A hundred years ago authorities believed that knowledge of Latin and Greek was essential for being a leader in society. Nobody has believed that for at least five decades (at least).

Because peoples have arisen from languages, not languages from peoples.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Because peoples have arisen from languages, not languages from peoples.

Not sure what keeping a classical language requirement has to do with that notion, which is unprovable anyway.

The situation seems to be that classics departments in the US barely have enough students to justify their existence. Removing the language requirement is a ploy to hopefully draw more students in. That’s it.

What’s much more disturbing to me is Princeton’s claim that it’s doing it to make classics studies more accessible to minority students - as if minority students are going to suddenly flock to the classics now and were only kept from doing so before because they had no access to Latin in high school (which is also untrue). That seems to me to be a smoke screen for the fact that if they don’t get more students of any race or gender, their departmental funding will be cut.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Well, if you are going to be a Classics MAJOR (I.e., if your parents are wealthy and you need not worry about employment) then you should certainly have a working mid-level knowledge of Latin and/or Ancient Greek. I mean if you are going to teach Western Civ or do PhD level research, it would probably be a good idea to know it. If, on the other hand, you are just taking some electives to make you a more well rounded person —or to get you into law school, then learning Latin or Ancient Greek is certainly not necessary. I agree that this debate is driven by university classics departments that are desperate to remain financially viable. Sad as that might be.

I am fascinated that the “how much do men think about Ancient Rome“ topic has suddenly become a cultural meme. Why is that? I think I detect a whiff of “because men are just big kids”, but I might be wrong. Like I said, I think about Ancient Rome fairly regularly.

Here is another fun mainstream article on the topic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...think-about-roman-empire-tiktok-trend/675341/

 

[FOXTROT LAMONT]

Well, if you are going to be a Classics MAJOR (I.e., if your parents are wealthy and you need not worry about employment) then you should certainly have a working mid-level knowledge of Latin and/or Ancient Greek. I mean if you are going to teach Western Civ or do PhD level research, it would probably be a good idea to know it. If, on the other hand, you are just taking some electives to make you a more well rounded person —or to get you into law school, then learning Latin or Ancient Greek is certainly not necessary. I agree that this debate is driven by university classics departments that are desperate to remain financially viable. Sad as that might be.

Princeton initially decried the rapaciousness of Rome for slicing Latin though I answer legere historium ac discere to youth desirous of pursuing the riches Latin offers with the epic grandeur of Rome and devour its sweep through time. Latin is absolutely necessary as mortar to bricks to strengthen this curricula, and it should be noted History, like Medicine, is a jealous mistress and demands more than cursory wait upon her if indeed her secrets are to be revealed.