Analysis of Aero Board Racer tag sizes

[Aloysius]

Sure, that could limit the generalizability. Aspects of the sample may reflect all the board racers out there (e.g., those not made [edit—ordered, I should have said] by TB).

But that being said, while TB gives Aero their desired measurements, the tag is determined by the Aero craftsman when it the jacket gets made (I assume). Aero is still the one looking at a jacket and saying “yup, let’s call this a 40.” I imagine TB orders them in a similar manner compared with the individual consumer, just in a much bigger volume (than some anyway—I’ve seen the size of some of your collections here). So these jackets, even those made to TB spec, still reflect what Aero deems within the suitable tag size range, presumably. I expect that the TB sample closely mirrors the general population in PTP, hem size and shoulder length, though I don’t have the data to actually show it.

Like I said above, the purpose of the exercise is to help answer “what does a tag 40 mean?” and related questions. I don’t think the limitations totally negate the findings.

Not quite. I don't know if you've seen what an Aero spec sheet is like.

I just feel bad saying much because you clearly spent a lot of time and effort on this to make a splash but unfortunately you went in missing some initial context.

 

[ton312]

Sure, that could limit the generalizability. Aspects of the sample may reflect all the board racers out there (e.g., those not made [edit—ordered, I should have said] by TB).

But that being said, while TB gives Aero their desired measurements, the tag is determined by the Aero craftsman when it the jacket gets made (I assume). Aero is still the one looking at a jacket and saying “yup, let’s call this a 40.” I imagine TB orders them in a similar manner compared with the individual consumer, just in a much bigger volume (than some anyway—I’ve seen the size of some of your collections here). So these jackets, even those made to TB spec, still reflect what Aero deems within the suitable tag size range, presumably. I expect that the TB sample closely mirrors the general population in PTP, hem size and shoulder length, though I don’t have the data to actually show it.

Like I said above, the purpose of the exercise is to help answer “what does a tag 40 mean?” and related questions. I don’t think the limitations totally negate the findings.

One other wrinkle to consider is that every aspect of the jacket is (somewhat) customizable. For example I have ordered 3 size 40” Bootleggers, all with a different drop in waist taper. One standard, one reduced dramatically and one 1/2” wider. I don’t know if TB does this with their orders or not. I do know they will alter design aspects (like on my Herc) and in so doing some of the measurements could be skewed by that.

The beauty of Aero is that they clearly state their tolerance for measurements in any given direction, so if you know your numbers, you can bank on a good fit. Aero does not hide pit to pit or shoulder/hem width. They will tell you. If you don’t know what you need, you use TB to figure it out. I’m not trying to be a dick or bust your chops, clearly you put a lot of work in here but I can say that, with all this, there is no substitute for a fit jacket (however you might come about getting it). If that’s not an option ask Aero, measure twice, and cut once.

Ultimately gathering this data on jackets that are custom made is impossible. As Ivan pointed out earlier it would be more useful for a sample of true OTR jackets. There are simply far too many nuances in the Aero process for this to make sense, at least in my experience.

 

[poorman]

Not quite. I don't know if you've seen what an Aero spec sheet is like.

I just feel bad saying much because you clearly spent a lot of time and effort on this to make a splash but unfortunately you went in missing some initial context.

Nope, I haven’t seen an aero spec sheet. But I am generally aware of how custom ordering from TB works and how those jackets wind up as stock on their site. Happy to learn about aero spec sheets if you want to share and thinks it adds value to the discussion.

Also, you seem to be suggesting that you might be crushing my hopes and dreams here. I think you might be overestimating how much time and effort I put into this. I spent 20 minutes on the TB site looking at pretty jackets, another 5 generating the chart and plot, and 10 writing the post. I know it’s hard to convey tone via text, but I posted it in a lighthearted manner as a send up of a journal abstract since I figured some of those in science fields may like to look at the data and would get a kick out of the journal style for such a silly thing.

 

[poorman]

One other wrinkle to consider is that every aspect of the jacket is (somewhat) customizable. For example I have ordered 3 size 40” Bootleggers, all with a different drop in waist taper. One standard, one reduced dramatically and one 1/2” wider. I don’t know if TB does this with their orders or not. I do know they will alter design aspects (like on my Herc) and in so doing some of the measurements could be skewed by that.

I wouldn’t necessarily call that a wrinkle—that’s actually kind of the point, in my mind. People are ordering the same model and specifying modifications to certain sizes, which get labeled still as the same tag size, and then get resold. I’m not suggesting that we can use this information in a way that will allow us to nail our fit by tag size alone or by skipping fit jackets.

I’ll put it differently. Let’s say you know your exact measurements. You’re looking to buy a second hand jacket, and you know generally which tag size that correspond with. Let’s say you click on 100 different listings for your desired jacket in your theoretical tag size. Not all of them actually match your measurements given variations in custom ordering. This type of information lets you know how many of those 100 listings might have your measurement.

(Edit-typos)

 

[Canuck Panda]

There is one data that I think directly correlates size tag. The around the shoulder measurement. Somewhere near the upper chest right below the shoulder muscle cap. With arms straight down the sides, this would actually be the widest part on a person. So it's chest plus arm at that circumference.
The reason I say this is because I have both size 40 and 42 Aeros in the same jacket. While the measurements are almost identical, the 42 feels bigger because the upper arm is an inch bigger on each sleeve so the total circumference is bigger. Hope I am making sense. But I haven't found a way to scientifically document this yet, in numbers.

 

[MrProper]

I must say that I have also always looked at the measurements of the sizes on TB before ordering Aero.
For all my jackets from Aero, a standard size was always the basis, which was then changed in the length of the body and sleeves and waistband. I.e. The measurements for p2p and shoulders have been quite helpful to me.
And so far, these measurements of the size of my jackets are in the range of TB sizes (of course, only p2p and shoulders).
In this respect, I would say, as a first clue, whether you need now rather a 42 or a 44, such an overview is not so bad.

 

[AerGuitar]

An added variable, particularly with the board racer is how you want it to fit. My BR journey has spanned 5 jackets and 3 sizes: 36,38,and 40. They all “fit”, but it took trying all 3 to decide how I personally like that fit. It is a very slim cut, so unless you grossly overshoot your size it will look flattering on the right body type. Each individual is going to have the ideal fit in their own mind. My best advice is either get the new fit jacket(trust Carrie) and go from there, or buy second hand at lower risk of losing coin if you need to resell. Don’t be me. I’ve lost more money on new board racers than Howard Hughes trying to get the Spruce Goose in the air.

 

[Carlos840]

Excellent work!

I would agree with some of what Monitor said about Aero. They make one jacket at a time, one machinist, using more than one machine, just one jacket. This is very different than batch runs where one man one machine and it takes two to three men / machines to make one jacket in the same batch run.

So essentially even a stock Aero jacket is still a custom jacket by default.

Take my recent board racer for examples, some measurements would fall outside of the range from TB numbers. And all I asked for is widened shoulder and add sleeve length 0.5". The first which I think isn't real just machinist trying to sew at minimum seam allowance vs going whatever, and the sleeve length might be from the cutter, but again I am not sure.

What I am trying to say is that every Aero jacket is gonna be different, even if they are ordered stock, because the nature of one machinist production. I know this because I have the same jacket in five different leathers and same stock size, and they are slightly different somewhat. Aero that is. I also have the same jacket in two different leather from RC which is batch made and they are identical except the leather. Very different production methods will yield very different results.

Here is my BR measure pics. Stock size 42. The shoulder and sleeve falls outside of the TB range. There is a margin of error in measuring too. For torso measurements I try to do the TB way now. So that's the biggest possible size which actually makes a lot of sense to me now.

View attachment 460136 View attachment 460137 View attachment 460138 View attachment 460139 View attachment 460140

I am extremely impressed by your statistical work. The way I database my jackets seems kindergarten compared to what you've done. Great work.

Two to three? try 10 to 20!

This is the build sheet of my Vanson Commando, it took 10 people to put it together and that was a custom order that was "made by a single person". Back then Vanson told me that had this jacket been part of the regular "batch production system" all the steps done by Sincha Bianchi could have been made by different people, raising the total to 20 people being involved in making a single jacket.

This is how Schott and most big manufacturers work...

 

[Canuck Panda]

Two to three? try 10 to 20!

This is the build sheet of my Vanson Commando, it took 10 people to put it together and that was a custom order that was "made by a single person". Back then Vanson told me that had this jacket been part of the regular "batch production system" all the steps done by Sincha Bianchi could have been made by different people, raising the total to 20 people being involved in making a single jacket.

This is how Schott and most big manufacturers work...

This what I had always suspected but wasn't 100% sure. This is good info. I had no idea Vanson ran such a big shop either, always thought they were much smaller in scale than Schott for some reason.

But I've seen the machines that needed to make a single jacket. Different machines with different weight/type/tensions for different stitches, blind stitch, top stitch...etc. And I do prefer the neatness of the "batch made" jackets. Aka Rainbow Country jackets.

And this is the reason why every Aero is a custom jacket even the stock ones. This would be the same for every other smaller shop imo. Some do it better than others but every small shop is essentially a custom jacket by heart. And some machinists can manage their sewing tolerances tighter than others. Aero is getting a lot better with the new machinists I see that in my recent Aero jackets, but there are sewing superstars out there.

The OP is trying to use data to figure out sizing. Very hard, especially Aero jackets can mean so many different things. I only have size 40 and 42 Aero jackets, but they do range from 21.5" P2P to 25". I think I have figured out 80% of their sizing system. I will post in their fit thread when I get to 99%.

To the OP, sometimes the best approach is to just do it. And expect failure. The possibility of making the jump the first try is there but very slim.

 

[nick123]

I’m sure this gives a good feel for standard chest sizes of the BR. I don’t imagine TB orders too many (if any) stock jackets from Aero with custom chest modifications.

There is a return or two on their page (usually sale page) but I think there is some value here.

That said, I think just looking at 2-3 identical sized BRs on the Thurston stock page would have the same effect. It’s probably a futile attempt to become preoccupied with small numbers as each new jacket will have some variance.

 

[Will Zach]

Two to three? try 10 to 20!

This is the build sheet of my Vanson Commando, it took 10 people to put it together and that was a custom order that was "made by a single person". Back then Vanson told me that had this jacket been part of the regular "batch production system" all the steps done by Sincha Bianchi could have been made by different people, raising the total to 20 people being involved in making a single jacket.

This is how Schott and most big manufacturers work...


Unless this is a public document, I would redact last names.

 

[Carlos840]

Unless this is a public document, I would redact last names.

Please delete it from the quote in your post, thanks.

 

[Will Zach]

Please delete it from the quote in your post, thanks.

Done.

 

[MTS]

It's obviously not a perfect set of data because of some of the aforementioned issues with the data set...but I still enjoyed your post haha

 

[ObiJuanValdez]

I just received a Seven (so basically Board Racer). I normally wear a 38 or 40, but Carrie sized me up to a 42 and it’s right. Do all Aero jackets run small?

 

[AerGuitar]

In my experience, Board Racers and the Premier line run small. Im a 38 slim suit jacket. I take a 40 in board racer, 40 premier Highwayman, 38 in a Sheene/cafe, and 50s half belt. A standard Highwayman in a 36 feels big on me.

 

[Carlos840]

I just received a Seven (so basically Board Racer). I normally wear a 38 or 40, but Carrie sized me up to a 42 and it’s right. Do all Aero jackets run small?

Aero is the only brand in which i am a 40 rather than a 42 or 44.

 

[Tom71]

Standard size on the patterns based on 1930s jackets.
One size down for 1950.
One size up for Premier versions including the Board Racer.

Rule of Thumb only, but works for me.

 

[Pandemic]

But all that being said, the Aeros WERE assigned a tag number despite being made in a nonstandard way, and the tag numbers DO convey information about the size of the jacket.

But that being said, while TB gives Aero their desired measurements, the tag is determined by the Aero craftsman when it the jacket gets made (I assume). Aero is still the one looking at a jacket and saying “yup, let’s call this a 40.”

My understanding is that the tag number indicated which base pattern the craftsperson pulled to make the jacket, and is not a reflection of the completed jacket.

I have submitted a range of specs that I wanted, including a 20” pit-to-pit. The pattern marked 36 has an 18.5” chest and the one marked 38” has a 21” chest. On looking at the other measurements I provided, like shoulder and taper to hips, the craftsperson determined to modify the size 36 and increase the chest, rather than modify the size 38 and decrease the chest. So, in the end I have a jacket marked 36 that fits me perfectly. However, it could have been a pattern (and tagged) 38. Indeed, if the order had been assigned to a different craftsperson it might have been.

 

[Aloysius]

Aero is the only brand in which i am a 40 rather than a 42 or 44.

This is true of a lot of Aeros although the Board Racer (and the cross-zips made on that pattern) measure like a size down from most brands. Size 42 Board racer is about 22" P2P for instance.