An open letter to this forum....

[Fedora]

I am aware that this forum leans towards vintage felt, and this is understandable. First and foremost, overall the vintage felt is better felt than most of what we see in the modern line. Of course, we must realize that many of us have not seen anything modern except what is coming out of Hatco these days, along with Biltmore and Akubra. You have not seen the pure beaver 75 gram lightweight body that is being produced by Portugal. Now, it is time to tell you the rest of the story.......

Last year I got in samples from Portugal. One of the samples was a brown 75 gram pure beaver body with zero stiffener. It was a "b crown" body, factory pounced. The B body means it was made to yield a less than 5 inch crowned hat. They also offer a 'c crown" that yields up to 6 inches. I pulled the hat over a small block(the body was sized to make a 6 7/8 sized hat) after steaming it a bit. I let it dry, and then ironed in the brim break. I did not iron the crown, or do any pouncing at all, as I was gonna make a hat from it later on and give it to one of my small headed customers. Upon removing it from the block I could see right away, it would be hard to work with it, due to the softness of the felt. It was floppy. I left the factory pouncing as is, but would have done some hand pouncing when I finally turned it into a hat.


To be honest, I was impressed with the body, but wanted another opinion. So, I sent it to our resident vintage expert, Matt Deckard. I figured I would hear back once he got the body, and I was intersted in his appraisel, before the hat was to be sent on to someone else to appraise. This was many months ago. To date, I have heard not one appraisel, in fact, Matt never acknowledged recieveing it. I would have thought this would have been a great topic, and that hat could have been passed around to get many opinions of the guys here who love vintage felt. Some comparisons, honest comparisons. It would be great to hear the opinions of several folks here, as you would be comparing some of the best the modern industry has to offer against the vintage stuff that most rave about.


If Matt ever gets around to examing the body I sent, perhaps he could send it on to someone else here who would like to evaluate the felt and compare. I am just used to folks that are more polite when you send them an expensive body to look at and send on. So, Matt, if you still have my body, please, just send it on to Art, or fedoralover, or anyone. No evaluation is needed from you, but I would love for some of the other vintage guys to examine it and give me and this board an honest opinon of what you see. I have no dogs in this race, as I am not gonna use this felt, due to the mimimums, so you will not be helping me one twittle by mentioning the Portugal felt on this board. You might help out Optimo, since they do buy the lessor quality bodies from this same company. I apologize for making this public, but the body needs to be sent on for posterity and you never answered my emails. Regards, Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

That's not true.. I told you I got the hat when i got it.. you said to hold on to it for a while and I said I'd showit to MK next time he visited. Didn't get to, though I will show it to him. Saying I never acknowledged that I got the hat is a farce.

It's a nice smooth felt. I'll post pics. I can't tell how it would wear as a hat because it is not a wearable hat... too small. Looking at a body of felt and feeling the smoothness is all good and well, though you know my criteria for a good dress hat like a soft fedora.

Does it droop in the rain?
Does the felt shrink?
Is it pliable and can it be rolled or crushed without wearing out too soon.

Claiming an untested felt is better than another companies is just plain irresponsible on your part and your doing it again like you have done in the past. DON'T!

My honest opinion is I don't know how well your felt will wear as I haven't one of your hats. I'm a 7 1/4 long oval and I'll buy one when I get around to doing so.

No one worth their salt who knows about hats will giv you a honest review unless they have had one of your hats on their heads for about a year. Looking at felt and feeling its smoothness is not a test of quality.

Who's next to see the felt?

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Brad Bowers would like to see it.. I know he has written you on it several times. Art and I have seen it already.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Okay brad PM me your address

 

[Matt Deckard]

Again... I'll post pics and tell what i saw ... It looks like a nice felt body. feels durable, though I can't tell anything really by just holding a suit and admiring it in the closet.

I like it without the stiffener... I think it is perfect for how many of the old Borsalinos were when straight out of the box. It's smooth as some of the Mercury finish felts... has that kitten touch.

though I'll buy one soon enough and give it a real look.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I'll post pics ...

.

 

[Matt Deckard]

By the by fedora... you haven't sent me a PM in months... you also got my phone number when I got the hat. You could have contacted me... it's a little more tactful than saying I never mentioned the hat to you when it was something about which we had plenty of discussions.

 

[mthatter]

Portugal Body

Hi Steve,

Could you put me on the list for an evaluation. I can tell the quality in several different ways, probably better than if it was a finished hat. I'll return it to you or pass it on promptly. My address is on the website below. Thanks.

John
www.rockymountainhatcompany.com

 

[feltfan]

Hmmm...

I hate to weigh in (again) on what appears to be
an argument between Fedora and Matt, but I've been
curious about that Portugal 75 gram body since it was
first mentioned here. I do agree with Matt that I can't
evaluate a 6 7/8 hat on my 7 1/2 LO or 7 5/8 melon, though.

Fedora appears to have ignored my points in the
"Felt debate" string, which is too bad. But a hat made
of a quality felt would speak for itself. Why not get a
7 1/2 C-crown body and make a hat we can pass around?
Wearing it for a week or two won't allow me to swear it
is the equal of my extra extra superiore Borsalino, but I
could tell a lot (assuming I had license to get it wet, etc).

In the meantime, I wonder what the minimums are for ordering
that felt? Fedora says they're too high for him. But if a few
of the hat makers on this forum got together, they could
probaby divvy up orders of a couple of popular colors.
Or persuade the factory to sell in smaller quantities.

 

[besdor]

75 GRAMS FOR A HAT SOUNDS NICE , BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE TO LIGHT WEIGHT FOR A HAT . I'D GO FOR A LEAST 100 GRAMS .







STEVEN
WWW.BENCRAFTHATS.COM

 

[Fedora]

By the by fedora... you haven't sent me a PM in months... you also got my phone number when I got the hat. You could have contacted me... it's a little more tactful than saying I never mentioned the hat to you when it was something about which we had plenty of discussions

Oops, I was sure that I had. I know I emailed you, or at least someone I thought was you. No hard feelings anyway I hope. Apparently I lost your phone number as well. I was just trying to light a fire under ya, that's all. Please accept my apology if I offended. That was not my intent at all.

Could you put me on the list for an evaluation. I can tell the quality in several different ways, probably better than if it was a finished hat. I'll return it to you or pass it on promptly. My address is on the website below. Thanks.

Great!! Now we are moving!! And if you will John, send it on to anyone else who wishes to see what the modern higher end felt has to offer. Now, since it is gonna be making its rounds, let me tell you what I had to do to keep the body looking like a hat, due to the softness of the felt. I used a reject sweatband and a ribbon to make the body look like a hat, but do not judge my hatmaking by what you will see. I had to do this to just give the felt some support around the brim break. I never intended for anything to be examined except the felt itself. So, you are forewarned. And also remember, that what you see is exactly as received from the plant. Factory pounce job that ain't bad at all, especially if you plan on doing more pouncing. A great starting point for a finely pounced dress hat. Thanks!!

75 GRAMS FOR A HAT SOUNDS NICE , BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE TO LIGHT WEIGHT FOR A HAT . I'D GO FOR A LEAST 100 GRAMS .

Yes, I agree, although this weight is found in quite a few vintage hats. I prefer a 120 gram body myself, but I like my hats a bit more sturdy than the lightweight dress hats. Since this one is pure beaver, the thinner felt would probably be a bit more durable than if something else was used. IMHO. Fedora

 

[Fedora]

I hate to weigh in (again) on what appears to be
an argument between Fedora and Matt, but I've been
curious about that Portugal 75 gram body since it was
first mentioned here. I do agree with Matt that I can't
evaluate a 6 7/8 hat on my 7 1/2 LO or 7 5/8 melon, though

No argument on my side. Far from it. Now, if you cannot evaluate a felt because it is not your size, I do not know what to say. You gotta put it on to evaluate the quality and looks of the felt?

Fedora appears to have ignored my points in the
"Felt debate" string, which is too bad. But a hat made
of a quality felt would speak for itself. Why not get a
7 1/2 C-crown body and make a hat we can pass around?
Wearing it for a week or two won't allow me to swear it
is the equal of my extra extra superiore Borsalino, but I
could tell a lot (assuming I had license to get it wet, etc).

Sorry, I did not know that I ignored. But I am usually in a hurry when I read and post here and do not always read everything. My fault. I am afraid I had to send what they sent me as a sample. They did not let me specify what the sample would be, sizewise. I wish it would have been larger, but with that said, if you know anything about felt, you could determine the quality and comparisons without wearing the hat. If you have to put it on, sending it to you would be a waste of time. Again, not being rude, just stating facts. If you wanted to see how it would taper, or not taper, plenty of steam and a cool off would show you quite a bit. I am sure most here have owned hats that would shrink and taper pretty badly if over steamed. Or, mist it with water and put it in a hot car. That will tell the tale.

I can tell the quality in several different ways, probably better than if it was a finished hat.

Now, we are on the same page. Thanks John. Good felt is like pornagraphy. I know it when I see it. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Dead wrong!

You cannot tell the quality without wearing a hat.

I don't really know the quality of anything until it has been tested. Same goes for the military.

I'd hate to be the guy wearing the first parachute... give that job to the sand bags!

To say you know the quality of a leather is the same situation. We have guys out there with leather jackets that looked great at the begening though depending on the tanning process the leather wears out sooner than later. They wouldn't have known unless they had worn it in the filed for some time.

Felt for me is the same as a dress shirt or a suit. If the material wears well then I consider it a quality well wearing garment. If you say you can tell the properties and gauge how well it will take the elements by not putting it in the elements then obviously I wont trust your opinion, especially when you made the same claims in the past and still leap then look. Why don't you hold off on stating how good the felt is until it is seen for what it really may be? People rush to buy these things you know. Didn;t you read where I said I'm tired of people getting mislead by unvarified statements?

It's tough to stick a pin through those hats from Worth and Worth too, though they wear out faster than a modern Stetson.

I wear alot of hats, the ones I keep wearing and tell people about are the ones that take the punishment and last.

 

[Fedora]

Does it droop in the rain?
Does the felt shrink?

I found this almost contradictory. In order to get a flanged brim to set, the felt has to shrink around the outer circumference of the brim. If you do not have wrinkles on the edge of the brim, that have to be shrunk through steam and heat and pressure, you will not get a good flange. So, what keeps an unbound or raw edged brim from drooping? (assuming little or no stiffener was used) The answer is the shrinkage of the felt along the outer edge. So, that felt had better be able to shrink on the outer edge, or your brim will lose the curl which also keeps the brim from drooping. Either that, or load it down with stiffener. Fedora

 

[Fedora]

You cannot tell the quality without wearing a hat.

Ok Matt, have it your way. Perhaps some will be able to do so. Boy, I am glad you are not working in a felt factory. When they do the trial and test runs, they could not tell if the felt was up to snuff. They would be very unhappy if you insisted on wearing the body for a year. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

I can test your felt that way if you want!

I just thought you wanted others to see it first.

I have some tests ready!

 

[fedoralover]

I'm not an expert on this subject, but will chime in on one thing. A few years ago I bought a couple of high end custom felt fedora's from a reputable hatter. They looked great, felt fantastic to the touch, workmanship was outstanding. After a while, I did what I had done dozens of times before on other vintage hats I had owned. I cleaned it with my spray foam cleaner from scout and then very, very, VERY, lightly steamed it and reshaped it.

The crown literally shrunk up in my hand while I did it. After only a few seconds of light steaming on a damp felt hat, my $350.00 fedora looked like a dunce hat. This had NEVER happened before and I was sick to my stomach at the sight of it. I had it reblocked and when I got it back I sprayed the inside of the crown with a heavy dose of felt stiffner to try to stave off any future disasters. Needless to say I do not wear either of these two fedora's in the rain.

So I would recommend this test to anyone who gets it.

fedoralover

 

[Ryckaert]

You guys seem to do/try a lot of stupid things with your fedoras. I guess I can see why you buy mostly ebay specials and crummy "customs." Those who know, Optimo.

Ryckaert.

 

[Rick Blaine]

You guys seem to do/try a lot of stupid things with your fedoras. I guess I can see why you buy mostly ebay specials and crummy "customs." Those who know, Optimo.

Ryckaert.

...and a hearty fellow-well-met hello to you too, sir...

 

[Brad Bowers]

In the meantime, I wonder what the minimums are for ordering that felt? Fedora says they're too high for him. But if a few of the hat makers on this forum got together, they could probaby divvy up orders of a couple of popular colors. Or persuade the factory to sell in smaller quantities.

I forget offhand what the prices were, but the minimum per color was really high. If enough of us wanted them, maybe we could get a couple of colors.

75 GRAMS FOR A HAT SOUNDS NICE , BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE TO LIGHT WEIGHT FOR A HAT . I'D GO FOR A LEAST 100 GRAMS

That's one reason I tried to find out about Lagomarsino's 90-gram bodies, but never got anywhere with them.

I'd like to get on the list to see the Portugal body, as soon as we figure it out!

Brad