Amon Carter Borsalino; Stetson Shady Oak Farm; Peters Bros Shady Oaks, Bankers Special & Shady Pines

[M Hatman]

How were the "others LBJ hats" sold inscribed, or do we know? When I think of tourists shopping for trinkets or souvenirs at a Presidential Library, I think of rather inexpensive things, not something like a 7X Seventy Five, which seems more purposely purchased to me. But that's just my theorizing.

Well....show us yours when they arrive....

I have seen them marked as Senator, Vice-President and President and those offered were almost always 3X....which would mean either his give-aways or museum sale or even campaign hats.

I have posted pictures I own of his giving away literally stacks of hats on his ranch.......they were almost always 3x pre creased versions.

Now he DID offer special presentation hats of better quality (I have a photo of him as a Senator giving such a hat to Truman). Truman himself wore a 7XCB (and I have a photo where you can see the inside of his hat that shows this, It too is posted around here somewhere).

If you look around you can find more examples of these as well as hats with proper provenance that he actually wore.

 

[M Hatman]

When I wrote this I had a thought, 'Mark is likely to respond somewhat emotionally with caps and emojis'. You do not disappoint. The bonus is you threw in those catalog pics of the snap brim ORs. I've seen them a dozen times and thanks for proving my point; I had never seen those pics prior to TFL. Those were likely produced before I was reading catalogs.

And please don't tell me what I'm "too" used to seeing, I doubt your experiences are much greater than mine. You do not know me. As OR's go, I have 6 ranging in age from the late 40's to late 50's and qualities from Royal to a 7X CB. The Royal Deluxe was once an OC hat but came with a cattleman crease and a brim that can be snapped but likely wasn't. I also have a soft 25 that came with a cattleman crease and a brim that had never been snapped, though could be. I had another 25 with the liner and laced sweat like yours that was a stiff hat I got rid of. You could never have snapped it w/o great effort. The only OR I have with a snap brim is the 40's Royal. It also has a diamond, my least favorite crease. It was once an OC hat but it's been that way for a long time, so I left it. I have three 3X hats that are all soft and sold OC I'm sure. Two are center creases and my latest came with a cattleman. None appear to have been worn with a snap brim. My 7X CB OR is a stiff brim hat with a firm crown that came with a cattleman of sorts. I've seen folks take similar 7X CBs and work the cattleman out of them and steam them until they're able to bend the brim to a down position. Doubt it snaps back up.

As far as me "broadening my horizons", I'm certain our perspectives are quite different on that.

NO, you are right, we do not know one another....and I Suppose it is hard to read "poking fun, joshing around" in our words here....

BUT to you I tip my hat and say "Have a good day!"

PS: What is wrong with the fun emojis????


PS PS: Emojis are their to signify...."Have Fun"......."Loosen Up"......"don't take things too seriously"....Perhaps even "Seize the Day!!!", though personally I just like to poke the day with a stick.....

 

[Bamaboots]

The lounge has had these arguments on telling others how to wear their hats before.....they NEVER end well....

To even suggest that my posts said anything about how one should wear their hat is out of line. And to suggest that your response to my post, before all your editing, was anything less than serious and you trying to school me is comical.

 

[M Hatman]

To even suggest that my posts said anything about how one should wear their hat is out of line. And to suggest that your response to my post, before all your editing, was anything less than serious and you trying to school me is comical.

"All my editing" was done well before (almost an hour) before you responded.......nothing was changed after you responded.....the time stamps which I am sure you can see, show this......there were loading issues with the forum at the time, hence the editing (which was a LOT even for me) the forum kept showing an error when I tried to post, then when it let me post, proceeded to cut off over half my response. Still not sure what that was about unless the forum "went down" for a short time as has been known to happen. Nothing was disingenuous about my post, only yours saying I edited mine after you responded which is CLEARLY not true.

It could be judged unfair saying you were suggesting to us not to wear our OR's "snapped" (ironically as others have done)....I will grant you that. Your comment was brief to say the least and was left wide open for the interpretation of "disapproval", for which I apologize and take your explanation at face value.

Your later response has merit as many of us here really never see many people in hats like are here on the lounge. I have seen OR's on the Horse Show circuit (but by far many more westerns, derbies, and even homburgs, the last two in English seat, jump and dressage) and those OR's seen, were by far represented with the stiff modern factory crease.....so no did not see many snap brims there....as if they could be.

Now, outside that range I HAVE seen auctioneers wear many a style of OR (with the 2 inch and 2 1/4 brims being preferred in that class) and about half would wear them brim down. So yes, I did see this before the lounge. I also have seen my great uncle John (who was a rancher in Colorado) wear his OR's snapped when dressed up on business and in town, so their is that.
The OR was his "dress hat" for the most part (though worn and soiled examples turned into work-wear).

And for myself I was exposed to hats and examples of how they were worn through museum contacts, collections, photo archives etc which is probably a unique perspective even here. Doubly so as I am in constant contact as I collect the stuff...

Then of course there is the country music 50's 60's thing where many, like Hank Williams, wore snapped OR's, that some loungers (a good many, judging by our age) should know.

You actually got me to thinking about how few hat wearers many Loungers do in fact see out in the real world (outside western, but even their numbers are dwindling) as threads here attest as well as how few of us there are really when we hear the comments from "others" about our hats....

So, YES...before the lounge many here have little to judge how hats were worn "back in the day".

All this might make a good thread about pre-Lounge experience, and how we wear our hats has been effected by what we are exposed to here...(if one does not already exist and we could discover it).

You and I are frictus in a way I think even 6 shots with 6 beer chasers cannot fix I am afraid.

Anyway I got through with only one emoji!!! (Ok two )

 

[Bamaboots]

"All my editing" was done well before (almost an hour) before you responded...

I edited mine after you responded which is CLEARLY not true.

Explain away all you want. You cannot edit what I read or change my feelings on the matter with lengthy posts. Maybe some proof reading or a little more thought is in order before you hit the send button. Cuts down on all those editing problems.

I’m done here.

 

[M Hatman]

Explain away all you want. You cannot edit what I read or change my feelings on the matter with lengthy posts. Maybe some proof reading or a little more thought is in order before you hit the send button. Cuts down on all those editing problems.

I’m done here.

YES, yes....do not let the facts get in the way.........you saw my post as it stands and you know it! Time stamps do not lie and cannot be altered by the user (and probably not by the bartenders either).

Yes, just stomp your boots and walk away......If I were you, I would block my user content for good measure. So much for peaceful discourse......

I still think a "What we knew before the Lounge" thread could be a good one........

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Your later response has merit as many of us here really never see many people in hats like are here on the lounge. I have seen OR's on the Horse Show circuit… …and those OR's seen, were by far represented with the stiff modern factory crease.....so no did not see many snap brims there....

All factors compounded by the FL members age, location, lifestyle, fashion, etc. Adding to this complicated picture is often the misidentification of the Strat & the non OR 3x6 with the OR. For misidentifications just check the Other OR thread sometime.

 

[MikeinRome]

"All my editing" was done well before (almost an hour) before you responded.......nothing was changed after you responded.....the time stamps which I am sure you can see, show this......there were loading issues with the forum at the time, hence the editing (which was a LOT even for me) the forum kept showing an error when I tried to post, then when it let me post, proceeded to cut off over half my response. Still not sure what that was about unless the forum "went down" for a short time as has been known to happen. Nothing was disingenuous about my post, only yours saying I edited mine after you responded which is CLEARLY not true.

It could be judged unfair saying you were suggesting to us not to wear our OR's "snapped" (ironically as others have done)....I will grant you that. Your comment was brief to say the least and was left wide open for the interpretation of "disapproval", for which I apologize and take your explanation at face value.

Your later response has merit as many of us here really never see many people in hats like are here on the lounge. I have seen OR's on the Horse Show circuit (but by far many more westerns, derbies, and even homburgs, the last two in English seat, jump and dressage) and those OR's seen, were by far represented with the stiff modern factory crease.....so no did not see many snap brims there....as if they could be.

Now, outside that range I HAVE seen auctioneers wear many a style of OR (with the 2 inch and 2 1/4 brims being preferred in that class) and about half would wear them brim down. So yes, I did see this before the lounge. I also have seen my great uncle John (who was a rancher in Colorado) wear his OR's snapped when dressed up on business and in town, so their is that.
The OR was his "dress hat" for the most part (though worn and soiled examples turned into work-wear).

And for myself I was exposed to hats and examples of how they were worn through museum contacts, collections, photo archives etc which is probably a unique perspective even here. Doubly so as I am in constant contact as I collect the stuff...

Then of course there is the country music 50's 60's thing where many, like Hank Williams, wore snapped OR's, that some loungers (a good many, judging by our age) should know.

You actually got me to thinking about how few hat wearers many Loungers do in fact see out in the real world (outside western, but even their numbers are dwindling) as threads here attest as well as how few of us there are really when we hear the comments from "others" about our hats....

So, YES...before the lounge many here have little to judge how hats were worn "back in the day".

All this might make a good thread about pre-Lounge experience, and how we wear our hats has been effected by what we are exposed to here...(if one does not already exist and we could discover it).

You and I are frictus in a way I think even 6 shots with 6 beer chasers cannot fix I am afraid.

Anyway I got through with only one emoji!!! (Ok two )

Speaking of how few hat wearers we see, when you think of dress hat wearing, it's synonymous in my mind with big cities like New York, etc. But living in New York back in the early 90's, I had a nice old grey Dobbs wide-brim fedora I'd gotten for $25 and a vintage Borsalino I'd gotten for $5 in a church thrift store. Wore those hats all over the greater New York City area and very rarely if ever saw another hat wearer. You'd have thought they had never existed before. Later, I lost possession of these hats and I missed them and missed wearing them so much that it made me want to find replacements for them, which evolved into my present passion for old hats.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

How the TV show ‘1883’ benefited a historic Fort Worth hat shop​

https://fortworthreport.org/2022/03...883-benefited-a-historic-fort-worth-hat-shop/

 

[BobHufford]

A recent Goodwill get. Peter Bros. Shady Pine Fifty 6X. 2-7/8" over-welt brim, 5-1/2" open crown. Size 7-1/4.

Great felt that easily creases.

Needs a little cleaning.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Great felt that easily creases.

Switzerland hood.

I wonder if there is any correlation, rhyme or reason to the Texas Hat nomenclature going vertical & horizontal?

 

[BobHufford]

Switzerland hood.

I wonder if there is any correlation, rhyme or reason to the Texas Hat nomenclature going vertical & horizontal?

Probably happened when they dropped the "Hoods Made in Switzerland" debossing. The "X"s moved in with "The Texas Hat" logo and flipped sideways.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Probably happened when they dropped the "Hoods Made in Switzerland" debossing. The "X"s moved in with "The Texas Hat" logo and flipped sideways.

View attachment 521383

All of mine are Switzerland hoods & horizontal.

 

[BobHufford]

All of mine are Switzerland hoods & horizontal.

Guess I didn't go far enough back in the thread. Looks like the "X"s moved before the Swiss Hoods ran out.

 

[Federico's Fedora]

Hi there chapeau fans.
I am new to the forum, in fact I am new to all forums. So please bear with me as I learn forum etiquette.
I joined to learn more about vintage hats and the people who appreciate them.
I’m seeking information and perhaps appraisal value on a recent purchase I made.
I purchased a Peter Brothers Shady Pine Forty from a retired pilot.
He acquired this hat from a retired Colonel, who had an interesting/ impressive military war career.

https://airandspace.si.edu/support/wall-of-honor/dr-norman-h-runge-col-usaf-ret

Norman H. Runge - 2008 Inductee

I wonder if his ownership adds provenance adds to the value this impressive hat.
Also, the box it came and receipt.
It’s got that old aroma .
The receipt appears to be dated 1949. What do you think of my hat, can you share any history or specs, I am interested in your opinion as to the value.
Appreciate you and your information.

YouTube demo video link.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Hi there chapeau fans.
I am new to the forum, in fact I am new to all forums. So please bear with me as I learn forum etiquette.
I joined to learn more about vintage hats and the people who appreciate them.
I’m seeking information and perhaps appraisal value on a recent purchase I made.
I purchased a Peter Brothers Shady Pine Forty from a retired pilot.
He acquired this hat from a retired Colonel, who had an interesting/ impressive military war career.

https://airandspace.si.edu/support/wall-of-honor/dr-norman-h-runge-col-usaf-ret

http://[URL]https://www.dahf.org/Runge_Norman08.html

[/URL]

I wonder if his ownership adds provenance adds to the value this impressive hat.
Also, the box it came and receipt.
It’s got that old aroma .
The receipt appears to be dated 1949. What do you think of my hat, can you share any history or specs, I am interested in your opinion as to the value.
Appreciate you and your information.

YouTube demo video link.

It’s a nice hat and I like the shape. I don’t think the association with the good colonel adds much if anything to the value. The 1949 date doesn’t “feel” right to me, but I confess I don’t know enough about Peter Bros. to offer any substantial opinion. There are others here that know more and hopefully they’ll chime in soon.

 

[Frunobulax]

Hi there chapeau fans.
I am new to the forum, in fact I am new to all forums. So please bear with me as I learn forum etiquette.
I joined to learn more about vintage hats and the people who appreciate them.
I’m seeking information and perhaps appraisal value on a recent purchase I made.
I purchased a Peter Brothers Shady Pine Forty from a retired pilot.
He acquired this hat from a retired Colonel, who had an interesting/ impressive military war career.

https://airandspace.si.edu/support/wall-of-honor/dr-norman-h-runge-col-usaf-ret

http://[URL]https://www.dahf.org/Runge_Norman08.html

[/URL]

I wonder if his ownership adds provenance adds to the value this impressive hat.
Also, the box it came and receipt.
It’s got that old aroma .
The receipt appears to be dated 1949. What do you think of my hat, can you share any history or specs, I am interested in your opinion as to the value.
Appreciate you and your information.

YouTube demo video link.

Well, congratulations! Not only do you have a very nice hat, but I think you're the first person to debut with a video of their hat.

We have a fairly well-developed thread on the Peters Bros Shady Oaks/Pine hats. Nice to have the provenance, as well.

Here is the thread: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...hady-oaks-bankers-special-shady-pines.102435/

 

[Frunobulax]

It’s a nice hat and I like the shape. I don’t think the association with the good colonel adds much if anything to the value. The 1949 date doesn’t “feel” right to me, but I confess I don’t know enough about Peter Bros. to offer any substantial opinion. There are others here that know more and hopefully they’ll chime in soon.

Entirely possible, but not in this case. Not certain about the Shady Pines, but Shady Oaks go back to the 20s.

However, Col. Runge was 15 in 1949, and I don't think he was wearing chickens yet. Looking at his career, it appears he served from the late 60s on, so he probably made Col. in the 70s. Not certain how that squares with the Swiss Hoods, though, which I thought pre-dated the 70s.

@Hurricane Jack is the guy to shed more light on this.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Hi there chapeau fans.
I am new to the forum, in fact I am new to all forums. So please bear with me as I learn forum etiquette.
I joined to learn more about vintage hats and the people who appreciate them.
I’m seeking information and perhaps appraisal value on a recent purchase I made.
I purchased a Peter Brothers Shady Pine Forty from a retired pilot.
He acquired this hat from a retired Colonel, who had an interesting/ impressive military war career.

https://airandspace.si.edu/support/wall-of-honor/dr-norman-h-runge-col-usaf-ret

http://[URL]https://www.dahf.org/Runge_Norman08.html

[/URL]

I wonder if his ownership adds provenance adds to the value this impressive hat.
Also, the box it came and receipt.
It’s got that old aroma .
The receipt appears to be dated 1949. What do you think of my hat, can you share any history or specs, I am interested in your opinion as to the value.
Appreciate you and your information.

YouTube demo video link.

Hard to see detail from a collage of pics on a video. The hoods were imported by Peters Bros into the late 1960’s. The 5X Forty was supposed to be a $40 hat but the sales receipt shows $20. One reference you posted states Runge was born in 1924, the other states 1934. I’m inclined to think the hat dates very late 1950’s to right around 1960.

 

[Mcox47]

If you look at the receipt you will see someone wrote the stamped ticket number in by hand. Both of the "2's" used match the way the date is written on the ticket, so instead of 1949, I think the date shown is March 29 (3/29).

Can't comment on the possible year, luckily other wiser experts already have.