Amon Carter Borsalino; Stetson Shady Oak Farm; Peters Bros Shady Oaks, Bankers Special & Shady Pines

[DaveProc]

Hi there chapeau fans.
I am new to the forum, in fact I am new to all forums. So please bear with me as I learn forum etiquette.
I joined to learn more about vintage hats and the people who appreciate them.
I’m seeking information and perhaps appraisal value on a recent purchase I made.
I purchased a Peter Brothers Shady Pine Forty from a retired pilot.
He acquired this hat from a retired Colonel, who had an interesting/ impressive military war career.

https://airandspace.si.edu/support/wall-of-honor/dr-norman-h-runge-col-usaf-ret

http://[URL][URL][URL][URL][URL][URL][URL]https://www.dahf.org/Runge_Norman08.html

[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

I wonder if his ownership adds provenance adds to the value this impressive hat.
Also, the box it came and receipt.
It’s got that old aroma .
The receipt appears to be dated 1949. What do you think of my hat, can you share any history or specs, I am interested in your opinion as to the value.
Appreciate you and your information.

YouTube demo video link.

-The hat did not belong to Col. Norman H. Runge as he did not live at Bocket Rd in New York (as shown on the receipt in your video). Although a Norman H. Runge did live on Bocket Rd, this was a Norman H. Runge who was old enough to be sending his 18 year old son Glenn to Rensselaer in 1952 and could not have been the Colonel.

-Future Col. Norman H. Runge lived at 2424 McKinley St Omaha Nebraska in 1952

Omaha Nebraska Evening World Herald 8-23-2052
Future Col. Runge



Orange New York Journal News 10-21-1952
Hat owner, and not future Col. Runge



North Omaha Booster, 8-12-1954 (Nebraska)
Lt. Norman H. Runge marriage announcement


Evening World Herald Nebraska 4-9-1955 Norman H. Runge commissioned 2nd LT.


Journal News, Orange NY, 4-16-1954 Hat owner, not Col. Runge



During WWII the hat owner Norman Henry Runge lived about 4 miles from my current address with his wife Ruth





Col. Runge's wife's name was Jean as seen in his 2006 obituary

 

[DaveProc]

Hi there chapeau fans.
I am new to the forum, in fact I am new to all forums. So please bear with me as I learn forum etiquette.
I joined to learn more about vintage hats and the people who appreciate them.
I’m seeking information and perhaps appraisal value on a recent purchase I made.
I purchased a Peter Brothers Shady Pine Forty from a retired pilot.
He acquired this hat from a retired Colonel, who had an interesting/ impressive military war career.

https://airandspace.si.edu/support/wall-of-honor/dr-norman-h-runge-col-usaf-ret

http://[URL]https://www.dahf.org/Runge_Norman08.html

[/URL]

I wonder if his ownership adds provenance adds to the value this impressive hat.
Also, the box it came and receipt.
It’s got that old aroma .
The receipt appears to be dated 1949. What do you think of my hat, can you share any history or specs, I am interested in your opinion as to the value.
Appreciate you and your information.

YouTube demo video link.

According to this add from the Fort Worth Star Telegram dated 12-2-1951
The Shady Pine was introduced by Peters Bros. in 1951

 

[DaveProc]

If you look at the receipt you will see someone wrote the stamped ticket number in by hand. Both of the "2's" used match the way the date is written on the ticket, so instead of 1949, I think the date shown is March 29 (3/29).

Can't comment on the possible year, luckily other wiser experts already have.

The Shady Pine was introduced in December 1951

 

[BobHufford]

A recent Goodwill get. Peter Bros. Shady Pine Fifty 6X. 2-7/8" over-welt brim, 5-1/2" open crown. Size 7-1/4.

Great felt that easily creases.

View attachment 521363

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Needs a little cleaning.

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Was taking more pics of this today and found this 1936 - 1953 Borsalino factory sticker behind the sweatband.

Sfinge body color with ? ribbon color. Not sure of the model. Gorasgu maybe?

The ribbon color may not jive with what is currently on there.

Were some (all?) of the Swiss Hoods sourced from Borsalino?

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Were some (all?) of the Swiss Hoods sourced from Borsalino?

Nice find! Peters Bros history says they discontinued their relationship with Borsalino sometime early in Mussolini’s reign in Italy. We know they sourced hoods from Switzerland, Italy, England, Belgium, & other European countries. I don’t know how to pin down the timeline any further than that.

 

[BobHufford]

Nice find! Peters Bros history says they discontinued their relationship with Borsalino sometime early in Mussolini’s reign in Italy. We know they sourced hoods from Switzerland, Italy, England, Belgium, & other European countries. I don’t know how to pin down the timeline any further than that.

Thanks Jack. This is a bit of an odd-ball. Pre-1954 Borsalino body from the early part of the Shady Pine run (post 1950/51), but with a Swiss Hood sweatband. I can't explain the sweatband, but at least the other two attributes narrow the date range. Maybe Borsalino dropped that shipment off in Switzerland to travel with the real Swiss Hoods.

 

[MikeinRome]

Was taking more pics of this today and found this 1936 - 1953 Borsalino factory sticker behind the sweatband.

View attachment 556688

Sfinge body color with ? ribbon color. Not sure of the model. Gorasgu maybe?

The ribbon color may not jive with what is currently on there.

Were some (all?) of the Swiss Hoods sourced from Borsalino?

That's really something, Bob!

 

[BobHufford]

That's really something, Bob!

Thanks Mike!

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Thanks Jack. This is a bit of an odd-ball. Pre-1954 Borsalino body from the early part of the Shady Pine run (post 1950/51), but with a Swiss Hood sweatband. I can't explain the sweatband, but at least the other two attributes narrow the date range. Maybe Borsalino dropped that shipment off in Switzerland to travel with the real Swiss Hoods.

Certainly the first PB with a Borsalino tag to be documented here.

 

[steur]

Was taking more pics of this today and found this 1936 - 1953 Borsalino factory sticker behind the sweatband.

View attachment 556688

Sfinge body color with ? ribbon color. Not sure of the model. Gorasgu maybe?

The ribbon color may not jive with what is currently on there.

Were some (all?) of the Swiss Hoods sourced from Borsalino?

Ribbon colour could be Daino. Several ribbon colours that end with o were used (nero, buio, asfalto, vanadio, daino, ossido, folco, segaro, bistro, piombo, crudo, cisogno, rovo, cucio, plumbeo, bulgaro). Daino seems to fit best and would go well with the felt colour. Could be one we haven't seen before though.
It is a Gorasgu. The model number is close to other Gorasgu hats we've seen and some fiddling with photoshop reveals a bit more detail.

 

[BobHufford]

Ribbon colour could be Daino.

Thanks for the research Stefan!

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Further documentation on Amon Carter as the father of the open road style documented below.

…Amon Carter-style hats, which were born one fateful day in 1920 on the streets of New York City…

Amon Carter (Fort Worth’s preeminent civic booster) was strolling along in Manhattan wearing his three-piece suit, cowboy boots, and 10-gallon hat — and he was mistaken for a vaudeville performer. “He took that as a personal insult,” says (Rodger ) Chieffalo, (who owns Chieffalo Americana, Fort Worth’s unofficial cowboy hat historian). Carter returned to Fort Worth and sat down with Mr. Peters of Peters Brothers Hats to create a different look. Carter’s new hat had the dimensions of an East Coast fedora, a 3-inch brim with a 5-inch to 6-inch crown, but it was made with beaver fur. Eastern hats used rabbit felt because it could be dyed multiple colors, unlike the waterproof (and dye-repellant) beaver felt.

“But out West here, hats had a different use,” explains Chieffalo. “They weren’t a fashionable thing; they were a functional thing.” Carter also wanted a thinner hat band and a different crease, something distinctively Fort Worth. He chose the same design that local men were wearing, a sleek, deep indentation in the middle of the crown with two creases on the side. “By Amon doing that, his hat became so popular in that style that they started calling it the Fort Worth crease.”

Carter named his new creation the Shady Oak. “He changed the hat business,” says Chieffalo. “He made a hat that was urban for the Western states. Suddenly, men that lived in cities all up and down the Midwest, from Chicago to San Antonio, they had their own hat style. If you were in a city in the West, you had one of those hats.” Hat shops all over began making the design and giving it their own name: the Open Road, the San Antonio, the Bankers Special, the Cattle Buyer. By the 1940s, most ranch owners were wearing this “cowboy fedora,” not only when they traveled to the city but back on the ranch as well. Their cowhands, however, still wore the big, wide-brimmed hats — they were “all hat and no cattle.”

https://fwtx.com/magazines/fort-worth-magazine/tall-hat-deep-roots/

 

[MikeinRome]

Either Peters Bros Shady Oak or Bankers Special Shady Oaks Fifty 6X, Swiss Hood. Like a couple of other hats on this thread, the liner description differs from the sweatband description. Looks like a 50's mfg tag. 4 inch brim, 5 1/2 inch open crown, 4 1/4 inches as creased. Shown with the original box from before Zip Codes were introduced in 1963. Don't know if the brim was meant to have so much curl, but the box was too small for the brim to ever have been straight.

 

[MikeinRome]

This hat looks like it was never worn, but been sitting in the box for ages. The felt is soft yet dense and not real stiff, but just about right. Unfortunately, some insect got to it and there's a number of tiny nibble spots. Aside from that, a nice hat. According to what others on the Lounge have said about felt processed with mercury, it supposedly made the felt dense and soft. Those 2 words, dense and soft, were the first 2 words that came to mind immediately as soon as I touched this hat.

 

[Who me?]

Hello gents.
New here. Texas native, DFW area.
Going away from the baseball cap days and am looking to add a couple of hats.
Not a cowboy hat guy, so last year I tried a cheap wool hat with a 3” brim and tear drop pinch front crown. The brim is angled down a little bit all the way around. I like the way it looks.

Now that I’ve found a style that I like, it’s time to get my first hat project started.
Im lucky enough to already have the hat. It belonged to my father. A Peters Brothers Bankers Special. My father died 23yrs ago and it’s been around my house ever since.
I took it to PBs to have it stretched, new sweatband, clean and reshape. I wasn’t pleased with what I received, but I did get a new sweat band. The hat fits but it was stretched off center to the crown and the sweatband was only tacked in, which was a good thing since it needs to be taken out and done properly.
The crown seems very pliable and fairly easy to change shape.
I was wondering who y’all might suggest for a proper reconstruction.
It has a 3.75” brim.
Best hat brush?

Matt

Old band

 

[BobHufford]

It belonged to my father. A Peters Brothers Bankers Special.

Nice! Your Dad had great taste in hats.

 

[Bill Hughes]

Hello gents.
New here. Texas native, DFW area.
Going away from the baseball cap days and am looking to add a couple of hats.
Not a cowboy hat guy, so last year I tried a cheap wool hat with a 3” brim and tear drop pinch front crown. The brim is angled down a little bit all the way around. I like the way it looks.

Now that I’ve found a style that I like, it’s time to get my first hat project started.
Im lucky enough to already have the hat. It belonged to my father. A Peters Brothers Bankers Special. My father died 23yrs ago and it’s been around my house ever since.
I took it to PBs to have it stretched, new sweatband, clean and reshape. I wasn’t pleased with what I received, but I did get a new sweat band. The hat fits but it was stretched off center to the crown and the sweatband was only tacked in, which was a good thing since it needs to be taken out and done properly.
The crown seems very pliable and fairly easy to change shape.
I was wondering who y’all might suggest for a proper reconstruction.
It has a 3.75” brim.
Best hat brush?
View attachment 557845
View attachment 557846
Old band

View attachment 557847
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I too live in the DFW area. I too have had very unsatisfactory work done at Peters Brothers. I never recommend them to anyone. I sent my PB hats to Art Fawcett who has retired. So now I use Mike Miller of The Northwest Hat Company. I currently own one PB from 1932. I’ve had several others (all vintage that I bought used) that I have sold. The vintage hats are good quality and workmanship. Unfortunately, the same can’t be said about there current work.

 

[Who me?]

Hello Bill,

Ive been perusing this site and others sources for a few months now. Wanted to grasp the concept of what goes into the hat selection process. Reconstruction also was an interest.

Have seen a few of your hats as well as others. Enjoyed following the progress and final results.

Art Fawcett seems to have been a great hatter. Too bad he is retired.
Seems like I’m getting into this endeavor almost at the end of a bygone era. Hopefully this isn’t the case.
I’ll look into Mike Miller, thanks.

Any idea of what decade it would come from?
My dad passed 23yrs ago and he had it for 10 to 15yrs. He bought it from another fellow that he worked with.
No writing on the inside of the hat. 3 piping hat band.

Matt

 

[Bill Hughes]

Hello Bill,

Ive been perusing this site and others sources for a few months now. Wanted to grasp the concept of what goes into the hat selection process. Reconstruction also was an interest.

Have seen a few of your hats as well as others. Enjoyed following the progress and final results.

Art Fawcett seems to have been a great hatter. Too bad he is retired.
Seems like I’m getting into this endeavor almost at the end of a bygone era. Hopefully this isn’t the case.
I’ll look into Mike Miller, thanks.

Any idea of what decade it would come from?
My dad passed 23yrs ago and he had it for 10 to 15yrs. He bought it from another fellow that he worked with.
No writing on the inside of the hat. 3 piping hat band.

Matt
View attachment 557977

No idea about the age. But I think you should be safe saying 1980s. Others may be able to give a more definitive answer.

The only reason I know my hat is 1932 is it’s written in the hat. According to the current owner, his grandfather Tom Peters always wrote the date and size information on the felt. 11-24-32 which just happens to have been Thanksgiving Day.

One good thing about Peters Brothers is they will sell sweatbands with their logo. So I always used one of their sweatbands when getting one refurbished by Art or Mike.

 

[Who me?]

That is sweet.

No idea about the age. But I think you should be safe saying 1980s. Others may be able to give a more definitive answer.

The only reason I know my hat is 1932 is it’s written in the hat. According to the current owner, his grandfather Tom Peters always wrote the date and size information on the felt. 11-24-32 which just happens to have been Thanksgiving Day.

One good thing about Peters Brothers is they will sell sweatbands with their logo. So I always used one of their sweatbands when getting one refurbished by Art or Mike.

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Very nice Bill.
Similar to what I am looking for.