ALL ORIGINAL Irvin RAF type Jackets - Loving that Wolf in sheeps' clothing!

[Leather Seat]

Hi,
I've recently discovered this site and have been devouring the information in the various (original and repro) Irvin threads. Still more reading to be done.
It is surprising, but pleasing, to see that these 70 year old jackets are still relatively accessible and many are still very much wearable. I had previously assumed you would see the occasional crumbling jacket in a museum and that would be as good as it gets. Whilst I see that many museum displays aren't in great condition, many jackets are.

I'm trying to decide on suitable sizing (probably a size 6 or 7, dependent on maker, as I'm 6'3'', 42'' chest, long arms and body). Are the arms on the original jackets designed to be extra long, in order to partially cover the hands, (as opposed to ending at a typical wrist length)?

I now have my searches saved on E-bay and intend to enjoy the hunt. I look forward to more inspiring pictures from today and yesteryear.

Regards,

David

 

[normanf]

Hi,
I've recently discovered this site and have been devouring the information in the various (original and repro) Irvin threads. Still more reading to be done.
It is surprising, but pleasing, to see that these 70 year old jackets are still relatively accessible and many are still very much wearable. I had previously assumed you would see the occasional crumbling jacket in a museum and that would be as good as it gets. Whilst I see that many museum displays aren't in great condition, many jackets are.

I'm trying to decide on suitable sizing (probably a size 6 or 7, dependent on maker, as I'm 6'3'', 42'' chest, long arms and body). Are the arms on the original jackets designed to be extra long, in order to partially cover the hands, (as opposed to ending at a typical wrist length)?

I now have my searches saved on E-bay and intend to enjoy the hunt. I look forward to more inspiring pictures from today and yesteryear.

Regards,

David

We have the same chest size but are the opposite heights. I take 42 R in a jacket size. That would be a European 52. I also wear an American Large. But I can go one size up or down depending on the manufacturer so I have leeway in finding the correct jacket fit.

Welcome to the Fedora Lounge!

 

[Doctor Damage]

I ran across this photo of General Harry Crerar and immediately thought this was the place that would appreciate it most - hopefully it hasn't been posted before. I think this photo is interesting because it hasn't faded and we can see the original colours clearly. Crerar was also a habitual wearer of duffle coats.

 

[Spitfire]

Great photo Doctor D. Thanks for sharing.

 

[B-24J]

Chrome Tanning

Reading through a couple old books regarding leather from the UK recently.

"The Chrome Tanning Process" by E.W. Merry, 1936 is a compilation of information regarding chrome tanning. The book is geared toward the chemistry of the process and related theories.

While my college chem class is long behind me, one of the interesting sections is APENDIX A which, among other things, talks about chrome tanning and vegetable tanning (SEE SCAN OF PG 139).

I was not aware that the last sentence in (c) or all of (d) was possible. If I'm reading it right.


The other book, which some other Loungers may have is "British Leather, A Record of Achievement", by H. Pearl Adam, 1946. This is a very nice overview of leather in WW2.

One of the chapters pertinent to the Ervin thread is entitled, "The Cavalry of the Clouds". Here are a few paragraphs...

"One type of flying clothing, the thermo-insulated suit, was made of woolskin, which is leather from which the wool has not been removed. Woolskins come from very many countries, including the home islands, and Australia, South Africa and South America. Of the majority of domestic skins received annually, (normally ten million) only two or three hundred thousand were suitable for use in this form.
Lightness of weight is important for flying suits, and fur-finished woolskins are ideal in this respect. They are flexible and they are waterproof; and above all, they imprison air, which is the best non-conductor of heat, so they are natural "thermo-insulators."
...
The fur finishing served a number of purposes. The polish and gloss made the suit easy to slip off and on, and, together with its flexibility, enabled it to respond to all movements of the body without hampering them. And its luxurious look and handle, its evocation of what was rich and luxurious in life amidst so much that was urgent and workaday (and workanight), were certainly not without their effect on the highly trained and tensely-strung mentality of the airmen.
The fur finishing process is complicated and long. To the dozens of stages necessary to produce leather from skin are added many others, clipping and combing and clipping again, ironing perhaps as many as twenty times, smoothing and polishing. Comparing the snowy fleece inside the flying boot and the rich fur of the flying suit, one can only wonder again that two such different results should have a single origin.
...
Very few firms in the country prepared the fur-finished woolskins for the flying suit."

In are earlier chapter of the book entitled, "Materials", is this paragraph regarding chrome tanned leather...

"Chrome tanning compounds constituted another major difficulty. Chrome leather is used for uppers, for gloves, for clothing and for oil seals - this last being one of the most vital purposes for which leather was used throughout the war. One of the reasons why chrome leather was essential was that it remains its supple self under extreme conditions. It was therefor necessary to have ample supplies of chrome-tanned leather. The chrome ore had indeed to be shipped from the distant Turkey or Rhodesia, but actually the chief
difficulty was the conversion of the ore into chrome-tanning liquor. There were only a few firms which undertook the process, so that supplies of chrome tanning compounds had to be carefully distributed."

The comment that, "... it (chrome tanned leather) remains its supple self under extreme conditions." caused me to speculate a little. Andrew has noted that early Irvins were vegetable tanned while the later war jackets were chrome tanned. Could the vegetable tanned jackets have become stiff at the higher altitudes at which new monoplane bombers (Wimpy, Whitley, and so on) were flying? Was the switch to chrome tanning done for a practical reason?

What do the Loungers think?

John

 

[nightandthecity]

MINT 1933 IRVIN AIR CHUTE JACKET

Pre-War Irvins are becoming rarer these days and those from the early 1930s are even rarer. The IAC patent dates to 1932 and at least one of the earliest jackets from 1932 did not have a waist belt, possibly a test jacket. By 1933 the Letchworth factory was turning out jackets which in many respects resemble mid War Irvins down to the four panel body construction. The iconic two panel construction associated with pre and early War jackets came a little later in the mid 1930s.

I have owned a 1933 four panel jacket for several years. The jacket had been well used, but retained all its original features, including the elastic strap.

However, a couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to add a second 1933 Irvin to my collection. When I saw photos taken by the collector I was amazed. The jacket is in stunning all original condition and impossible to up-grade!

The fleece is perfect-no wear at all anywhere. The single trunnion Dot zips have their original leather pulls. The rounded ends of the pulls contrast with the squarer ends of later pulls. Unlike my other 1933 Irvin this one does not have the eyelets for the elastic strap.

The label is clear with the IAC patent and no contract number. However this was an issued jacket for it was acquired D.K.Taylor, an Aero engine fitter who had joined the RAF in 1927 and served with no. 11, 605, 101, 230 and 605 squadrons until his discharge in August 1939. During the War he worked at No. 14 Elementary Flying Training School at Elmdon Airport, Birmingham as a ground engineer, specialising in the overhaul of Tiger Moth airframes and Gipsy Major Engines. From 1948 to 1974 he worked at Eastleigh Airport for a flying school, rebuidling a Gloster Gladiator and a Spitfire. How he acquired the jacket is not known, but it is likely to have been in the mid 1930s. It has been in storage for much of its like and thus is in such amazing consition.

It has been given a light coat of Pecards to protect the leather, but the leather is generally supple, with no damage, repairs at all.
I have taken some outdoor pictures today. The jacket is very comfortable to wear and a great fit. Enjoy!

glad you like the jacket Andrew, I might have known it would end up with you! I purchased this jacket from Buck Taylor's son back in (I think) 1991, and sold it in a moment of financial need in 1999 to a well known southern jacket collector...let's call him J.C.

Taylor's son advertized it in Flypast for £200 (!!) and I was the only person who got in touch, he told me it was "quite" good condition, so I was pretty staggered by what actually arrived in the post! I have mentioned this jacket in a couple of earlier threads and was met by some scepticism when I described it's condition, so it's nice to be vindicated......

Should never have sold it of course.....

 

[aswatland]

Thanks for this. It is a really superb example and is a probably a unique survivor from a time when few Irvins were made and fewer still exist today.

 

[nightandthecity]

Yes, probably a unique jacket in every respect.

Of course when I put it up for sale I thought it was a very early “1941” pattern - at that stage the received wisdom (taking our cue from Greer and Harold‘s list of 22c numbers, and observing what seemed a logical development from few panels to multi-panels) was that the Irvin was introduced in 1938 and that the earliest were the “BoB” type jackets. I was aware that some collectors had started claiming the Irvin went back to the early 1930s and that the earliest jackets included some unusual features, but it was only after I had put it up for sale that I got word it was probably an early 30s jacket ……but I decided to go ahead anyway.

I regret it now of course, but at the time I needed to raise a lot of dosh very quickly, and “needs must”. I was concerned that it shouldn’t end up on the back of some rich fashionista, so I didn’t open it to public sale, I auctioned it among my regular collectors instead (at the time I was an Aeronautica dealer) Anyway, I’m glad it has ended up in your hands, it’s very reassuring to know it’s found a good home. And it’s great to see it again - thanks for the photos!

 

[Doctor Damage]

Mark Henry "Hilly" Brown, Canadian pilot

 

[PADDY]

Mid to late war (WWII) RAF Aircrew sheepskin jacket made by Links.
Size 38, four panel to rear, six panel to front. Lightning (main zip) with lovely leather pull. Sleeve zips are AM stamped (one missing). Strong fleece, good deep, rich fleece to body.
Found in a second hand shop in Edinburgh, buried amongst 1960's and 70's plasic & leather combo sheepskins. They had 'no idea' the little gem they had!
Less than £200. They're still out there, just keep hunting folks.

 

[PADDY]

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Nice find, Paddy. It wasn't in Armstrong's was it?

bk

 

[aswatland]

Great bargain find Paddy. The Links 10422 contract (issued in 1943 with production running to 1945) which this jacket would almost certainly have been made under, was probably one of the largest awarded in the War judging by the number of surviving examples that come up for sale. I have never seen an example from this contract larger than a size 5.

 

[Otter]

Nice find you lucky so-and-so!

 

[PADDY]

Well it's finding a good home with one of our members.

 

[PADDY]

MINT 1933 IRVIN AIR CHUTE JACKET - That Sir is one fine jacket..!

 

[aswatland]

LINKS wired Irvin

This Links Irvin dates to 1939-40 and has the less common "Dot British" main zip. The puller is unusual and is similar to 1942 Talon pullers. It appears to be original to the jacket. The sleeve zips are the more familiar single trunnion Dot variety. The jacket was lightly worn in the War judging by the lack of wear to the fleece at the cuffs, windflap and hem. The jacket retains its original label which is sadly unreadable. The original elastic strap is present behind the collar. There are no holes or repairs to the jacket and all the stitching is secure. It was most likely issued as a size 6. The skin side of the fleece retains all its original chestnut brown finish and has nice vintage patina which repro makers have yet to nail! The fleece is very soft, making the jacket comfortable to wear.

 

[aswatland]

 

[aswatland]

LINKS AS A CONTRACTOR


Who exactly was behind Links Irvins is an enigma. The first Links contract dates to 1939 and they were a large volume maker throughout the War. The Air Ministry was desperate for large quantities of Irvin suits from 1938 and even more so when War broke out the following year. Irvin Air Chute and Wareings are the only known pre-War makers and they could not provide sufficient jackets and trousers for the rapidly expanding RAF. Distinguishing features of Links jackets is rounded collar, although this was less rounded with the earlier jackets, medium sized belt loops and collar rings. Often the eyelets on the belt and under the arm are bare metal.

It is possible that one of the leading London Furriers, Calman Links, was behind the production of Links jackets. Calman Links was based at 33 Margaret Street, London. Calman Links himself was, a Jewish refugee from Hungary, and the co-founder of the fur business, Calman Links in the early part of the 20th century. It may be that the firm's experience of making fur coats made Calman Links an ideal firm to manufacture sheepskin jackets. This is all conjecture, and hopefully I will be able to find documentary evidence in the National Archives to prove or disprove this theory!

BTW. Links remained in the fur business his life, at one point becoming director of the Hudson's Bay Company and gaining the royal warrant as the Queen of England's furrier.

 

[Otter]

Thanks for sharing the photos and the information behind the jacket, that was an interesting read. The fleece inside the jacket looks in astonishing condition, almost new.